Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sakrilege · 12-07-2002, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:
It would be like being anger with a tree because it is grew too tall, and punishing that tree by burning it down, because it had the odasity to follow its true nature.

According to the myth, jesus got mad at a fig tree for not bearing fruit in season and caused it to die.

JusticeMachine · 12-07-2002, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by faded_Glory:
Justicemachine,

You are trying to classify people in neat little boxes - homosexual, heterosexual, this box, that box.

Wy do you do this? Is it so that once you have them placed in their box it is easy to decide what to think of them? Why do you want to know what the bennifits or detremits [sic] of a sexual orientation are? Do you want to change anybody?

It is a very dangerous thing to classify people. It has often led to great evil. I suggest you try to accept people as they are and let the subject go.

fG

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: faded_Glory ]

Not people, but beliefs. Unless you say what people believe is what they are. If a person lies once or twice, is the person in the little box called liars? Or can a person choose to stop lying and is no long a liar, but a person who lied.

If a person murders, is he/she considered a murder for life, or can the repent and turn from that path?

JusticeMachine · 12-07-2002, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege:


According to the myth, jesus got mad at a fig tree for not bearing fruit in season and caused it to die.

If you could, please reference the scripture you found that in.

JusticeMachine · 12-07-2002, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquidrage:
I contend you can choose to belief in GOD, in fact much of biblical belief shows that having free will to choose to believe, is the only valid for of worship of GOD, that by a persons choice to believe in him, is a tribute to GOD.

No. You can choose to worship god. You can't choose your beliefs.

The only reason a person would worship GOD is because they choose to believe in him.

Look at the people who go to other contries to evangelize. Much of the people they come in contact with may have not belief in GOD or believe in a pantheon of different gods. Many, but not all of those people reached with the message of GOD choose to believe, many do not.

For if I have no free will (even partially free}, then how can a person be judged by GOD to be righteous or unrighteous, and punished or rewarded for something they had no ability/power/will to decide.

You just put the cart before the horse.
If there is no god it's irrelevant, right.
What you're touching on is morality in a deterministic world. Separate issue, feel free to post in philosophy or read the 100's of existing threads on the subject.

If we rely on man to dictate to man what is moral and what is not, then morality is subjective. If there is an eternal source that we ascribe to that has set what morality is and can inforce it upon use regardless of what our personal will is, the morality is objective.

It would be like being anger with a tree because it is grew too tall, and punishing that tree by burning it down, because it had the odasity to follow its true nature.

Whats your point? Certainly you can't believe that everything humans do is rational?
We do cut down trees becuse they've grown too tall. Do you get mad at them? I do not.
Hitler was killed because of his actions. Even though I'm a strict determinist I have no problem with that.

Even without free will there is a need for morality.
If you can't reconcile morality without free will that is your problem.

The point of the tree analogy is that a tree is A-moral, neither evil or good by it's intend, it does only what it can by its nature.

I guess with your Hitler reference, you would say that society, if compared to a tree, prunes itself. Cutting away it's own dead and diseased foliage to keep if from polluting the rest of its members.

JusticeMachine · 12-07-2002, 09:49 AM

I am still getting use to the formating of this site, so the above response didn't come through as expected.

sorry

sakrilege · 12-07-2002, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:
If you could, please reference the scripture you found that in.

Not only are we getting off the original thread opening, we are getting off accecpted forum topics so this train of thought should continue in a different thread in an appropriate forum, probably GRD. Let me know if you wish to continue

JusticeMachine · 12-07-2002, 10:03 AM

That's okay, I find we learn so much more when we are allowed to digress.

I feel that most subject have underlying premises that connect the holistically.

sakrilege · 12-07-2002, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:
That's okay, I find we learn so much more when we are allowed to digress.

I feel that most subject have underlying premises that connect the holistically.

Digressing isn't the problem, this is not the proper forum for continuing the scripture, free will topic. I started a new <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001549" target="_blank">thread</a> in the General Religion forum.

Liquidrage · 12-07-2002, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:


The point of the tree analogy is that a tree is A-moral, neither evil or good by it's intend, it does only what it can by its nature.

I guess with your Hitler reference, you would say that society, if compared to a tree, prunes itself. Cutting away it's own dead and diseased foliage to keep if from polluting the rest of its members.

I don't consider the tree immoral. I'm sure you don't either.

Morality is subjective, not objective.
Some people believe their morality is objective as they believe it comes from a higher source.
Of course, amongst those that believe their morality is objective there are still many different sets and many different sources.

Oxymoron · 12-07-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquidrage:
You can't choose your beliefs.

I beg to differ. Belief is entirely about choice. Even if your beliefs are innate - you don't know where they came from - they can be changed, and really very easily at that. The concept of innate beliefs is bogus, though: where could they come from, we're born as dumb as Dubya. Everything that is not instinct is learned, so one way or another it can be un-learned.

Back on topic, I think that JusticeMachine is rambling because the moment he gets a reply he changes the subject. Can we be a bit more focused here?

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12-07-2002, 09:49 AM	#35
JusticeMachine Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 403	I am still getting use to the formating of this site, so the above response didn't come through as expected. sorry

12-07-2002, 10:03 AM	#37
JusticeMachine Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 403	That's okay, I find we learn so much more when we are allowed to digress. I feel that most subject have underlying premises that connect the holistically.

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