Hugo Holbling

Here's a recent thread in which we discussed the proposed constitution, paris. I wrote to my MEP complaining about the possible inclusion of a reference to God and received a response outlining the opposition of the Liberal Democrats in principle to any such comment. He also mentioned that

Poland and Italy are among the main players, i understand; luckily the French constitution makes it very difficult for them. Apparently the debate is still ongoing, so we all need to make clear to our representatives our reasoned objections.

(N.B. I don't speak French but i'm learning - starting with the important expressions...)

philechat

I personally think religion should be openly discussed and argued about in places other than churches, the way we argue and discuss political issues without the fear of disrespect. However, as we do with political discussions, we should refrain from becoming too pushy in a situation when it is not the central focus of discussion.

Open exchange of opinions are IMHO the best way to undermine a person's religious convictions. But if they do not want to talk about it, we might just leave them alone...there is no use of thinking our opinions as the one holy Truth (tm) the way some Christians like to think about their god-given opinions.

paris

To Hugo Holbling Thanks for your answear

You wrote to your MEP. I schould probably do something like this. I'll see.In Italy, Poland, Portugal and Ireland political life is strongly under catholic influence, as far as I know. In France, some scholars, political men and intellectuals now suggest to supress the law that forbids the state tp give money to the churches. But I don't think they will dare to go further. Roughly speaking, the main purpose of those who would like to suppresss this law is to create mosques controlled by the government. They claim that it is the more efficient way to fight islamic fundamentalism. Maybe this is true, I don't know.

I suppose that you have the same problem in UK: officialy, all the religion are treated on the same foot, but in fact since the main religion possesses almost all the cathedral and churches from the middle-age, this religion receives millions of euros to restaure their many historical monuments. As a result, Islam and jews are, in some sense, discriminated.
.
As you see, I try to train my english writting here.

To philechat: I completly agree with you in fact. I was just joking.

trekbette

I grew up in a (non-practicing) Jewish household. And as far as I can tell, there is no "go out and convert people to our way" in Judism. If any thing, they make it kind of hard to join up.

I have been listening to Free Thought Radio a lot recently and some of the subject matter makes me want to go out and jump in the fray.

But I keep coming back to the fact that I really hate it when people come to my door preaching at me. I don't want to become what I hate so I generally leave people to their own beliefs.

For a lot of people, religion seems to be a crutch. Something they turn to for answers and hope. Even if they are wrong, if it makes them feel better, who am I to judge. As long as they don't push their beliefs on me.

I'm sorry, but I would be a horrible activist.

capsaicin67

I believe that things in the US are going to require thoughtful, enthusiastic, strategic activism or freethought will continue to be marginalized further. I do not believe that the courts will hold the line alone, though they often have thus far.

The religious right's strategy was to insert themeselves into politics to affect legislation. Not every approach has worked well for them but they have never given up trying. They have built membership and financial strength and acquired media outlets. They understand the importance of cultural primacy. The most important thing that they have done is to get tremendous access to the media and aligned with the Republicans in an unholy Holy alliance. Between the 2, they market the Republi-xian message around the clock. They've re-branded themselves as patriots and the embodiment of the flag, family, and values, so on and so forth.

Unless the freethought movement makes like the Nature Conservancy and works with reality as much as idealism, it's going to have a rough road ahead. It's going to have to get organized, financially growing, visible, media savvy, and marketable. The Nature Conservancy doesn't just whine about the corporate world gobbling up nature and abusing it, the Conservancy plays the money game too-----and buys [or trades for] the land they need or want. And wins at the game within the system. And is not perceived as "pushy", in fact I'd say they have a very accessible stealth approach. A nice balance, very professional, tasteful, effective.

There's a distinction between growth and visibility and prosletyzation in my opinion. There are many ways we can succeed and grow without being pushy or obnoxious, IMO. And I don't think anyone is going to give us awards for humility as a result of having CSS erode or the freethought community go extinct. The community will grow as a function of natural interest if there is a community out there to support it that they can find!

To your OP:

1)I am quite out, and speak somewhat diplomatically, but plainly about my freethought beliefs/lifestyle. It's taken me a while, but I do so with family, friends, and co-workers as the situation requires. [I have spoken out most recently both with family and at work to educate about the history of the Pledge issue when others tried to push through the theist-friendly version of the story].

2) I explore the media and try to patronize/visit freethought sources. IIDB, James Randi's Page, etc.

3)I am trying to continue to learn about freethought history, essential debating points, and sharpen my science, skepticism, reasoning in general.

4)I am going to financially "subscribe to" freethought support orgs. The most important I can see right now is the Campus Freethought Alliance. Maybe there is some whopping scandal I haven't heard about, but I'm impressed by what I read. Major campuses urgently need this sort of collective support for freethinking to grow. They're the next generation, educated and full of ideas and vision. That seems critically important to me.

5)I need to get my butt to the regional Humanist Group, but so far it sucks with my work schedule. I stay on their mailing list, but that's not the same thing.....

I'm plodding along, slowly......

EverLastingGodStopper

At last week's NJ Atheists meeting, American Atheists President Ellen Johnson talked about how AA wants to change to work with more activists and take a bigger role in the media on atheist unity and issues of church-state separation.

So, now I'm the new AA Regional Director for South Jersey.
http://www.atheists.org/nj/

{edited by Toto for link}

GaryP

Wow! Congratulations. I hope all goes well.

Are you taking over for Dave Silverman or is he still going to be involved? I saw him debate a minister on a Philly TV station a while back and was impressed with him.

Jersey seems to have one of the more active AA state affiliates.

By the way, I could not get your link to work. I hope this one does;

http://atheists.org/nj/

8of9

After the House Pledge resolution, I wrote a long letter to the editor of the local free newspaper. I tried to be thoughtful and not confrontational. They ran it almost intact, and right under the paper's own editorial! Read my letter here.

Today I got a single bit of feedback -- from another Atheist in my conservative town!

I don't know if I made an impression on any "defenders of the pledge", but I will definitely be writing more letters to the editor...

EverLastingGodStopper

Thank you for fixing my link, GaryP.

In reply, Dave Silverman is still the State Director for NJ, and Chad Hetman is the activist coordinator. I'm the South Jersey contact, so I'll be doing things in the Philadelphia area. (That's where my area's news coverage originates.)

8of9, YAY for your letter!
*grins*

Harumi

8of9,

Is there any way you could post that letter here? I'd be interested.

It's always nice to meet another fellow infidel isn't it? I'm always pleasantly surprised, even in a school as infidelic as mine!