Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Zee · 05-11-2003, 04:17 PM

I saw many theist's claim that fruitflies mutation experiments never created a stronger mutant. Also, they failed to create new species. Is this true?

Doubting Didymus · 05-11-2003, 04:24 PM

I can't think of any 'stronger' mutant fruitflies from the experiments I know of, but there have definitely been speciations. The famous fruitfly genetics experiments weren't intended to prove the existance of beneficial mutations, but were investigating other aspects of genetics, such as the influence of chromosomes of patterns of inheritance. There are plenty of examples of beneficial mutations in other species, though.

Wounded King · 05-11-2003, 05:36 PM

What mutant is stronger than a null mutant? Or an embryonic lethal?

Zee · 05-11-2003, 05:55 PM

Could you give me any link (from credible source) about the speciation? A google search of fruit flies mutation simply shows Christian web pages.

Doubting Didymus · 05-11-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zee
Could you give me any link (from credible source) about the speciation? A google search of fruit flies mutation simply shows Christian web pages.

Yes.

This talkorigins Faq is a huge collection of observed speciations. Fruit fly examples begin about halfway down the page. This one is my favourite:

Quote:

Drosophila paulistorum Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky (1971) reported a speciation event that occurred in a laboratory culture of Drosophila paulistorum sometime between 1958 and 1963. The culture was descended from a single inseminated female that was captured in the Llanos of Colombia. In 1958 this strain produced fertile hybrids when crossed with conspecifics of different strains from Orinocan. From 1963 onward crosses with Orinocan strains produced only sterile males. Initially no assortative mating or behavioral isolation was seen between the Llanos strain and the Orinocan strains. Later on Dobzhansky produced assortative mating (Dobzhansky 1972).

And the journal reference: no less prestigious than Nature:

Dobzhansky, T. and O. Pavlovsky. 1971. Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila. Nature. 230:289-292.

Valentine Pontifex · 05-11-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zee
I saw many theist's claim that fruitflies mutation experiments never created a stronger mutant. Also, they failed to create new species. Is this true?

As has already been mentioned speciation has been observed in experimental populations of fruitflies.

Like the others I must wonder what "stronger" is supposed to mean. But if they say no beneficial mutations or no increases of information have been observed they are wrong. They have even been observed in human populations. See this article

Doubting Didymus · 05-11-2003, 06:11 PM

Where would we be without talkorigins?

Valentine Pontifex · 05-11-2003, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
Where would we be without talkorigins?

Falling back to Helms Deep. Or what Helms Deep would have been like if the Ents and Gandalf had all decided it was a great time to visit dear old Radagast the Brown.

Doubting Didymus · 05-11-2003, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valentine Pontifex
Falling back to Helms Deep. Or what Helms Deep would have been like if the Ents and Gandalf had all decided it was a great time to visit dear old Radagast the Brown.

Radagast the Brown! Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool!

Todays small diversion brought to you by general human listlessness

Zee · 05-11-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
Where would we be without talkorigins?

In a church

05-11-2003, 04:17 PM	#1
Zee Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Heaven Posts: 11	The fruitflies I saw many theist's claim that fruitflies mutation experiments never created a stronger mutant. Also, they failed to create new species. Is this true?

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05-11-2003, 04:24 PM	#2
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	I can't think of any 'stronger' mutant fruitflies from the experiments I know of, but there have definitely been speciations. The famous fruitfly genetics experiments weren't intended to prove the existance of beneficial mutations, but were investigating other aspects of genetics, such as the influence of chromosomes of patterns of inheritance. There are plenty of examples of beneficial mutations in other species, though.

05-11-2003, 05:36 PM	#3
Wounded King Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,211	What mutant is stronger than a null mutant? Or an embryonic lethal?

05-11-2003, 05:55 PM	#4
Zee Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Heaven Posts: 11	Could you give me any link (from credible source) about the speciation? A google search of fruit flies mutation simply shows Christian web pages.

05-11-2003, 06:11 PM	#7
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Where would we be without talkorigins?

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