christ-on-a-stick

I have hesitated to participate in this thread only because the subject matter hits so close to home for me.

My first marriage ended in divorce under similar circumstances. HOWEVER, I must point out that there were numerous OTHER issues that contributed (which from the info you have provided Darren does not seem to be the case) so it is not a totally analagous situation, BUT I can still deeply identify with your frustration and pain. While I sincerely believe that my first marriage would have eventually disintegrated anyway due to a myriad of other incompatibilities (namely I got married *WAY* too young), my "deconversion" in the face of my ex's ever-increasing fundyism was the proverbial "straw the broke the camel's back" and made for a very unpleasant split.

Please realize that I am NOT saying that this is always invetible, only that I can definitely understand how truly upsetting, frustrating and <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> this situation can be. It also made me very sad at the time that my ex-husband couldn't see that even without religious belief I was still the same decent, ethical and worthwhile person I ever was (IMO anyway!)

All that being said, I jumped into this mainly to "second" oser's advice of insisting on seeing an independent, nonsectarian counselor/therapist. In my situation, this was the impasse that revealed to me that compromise was not going to be an option; I was MORE than willing to seek counseling, but only from an impartial professional source; he INSISTED that ONLY a Xian counselor would be acceptable (to boot, only one from our church, and none of them were actually licenses therapists, just church-appointed counselors). Although initially he claimed that he would *never* agree to a divorce even if I wanted one because it was unbiblical, after it became apparent that I was sticking to my guns on this issue I found myself presented with divorce papers within a few months on the premise that he was justified in divorcing me based on my "heathen" status.

Now suffice it to say that one hand I was horribly relieved because I felt that this really was the best thing, but I was still deeply hurt by basically being regarded as a "bad person" for my HONEST (dis)belief, and I am sorry to say that he did indeed try to some screwy stuff with regard to our joint property - too long of a story but basically he tried to get 50% of some assets that truly didn't belong to him (and he knew it and eventually admitted and conceded) but his "Christian" lawyer was telling him the whole time that even though he might not technically legally be entitled, the fact that I "forced" him to divorce me by being such and evil-godless-atheist-harlot made him "morally" entitled to it.

Needless to say everything turned out ok but I just wanted to say that I truly understand what you are feeling right now and my deepest most sincere hope is that you can somehow manage to work this out for a better end result, especially considering that you have children together... you seem like such a truly nice, thoughtful and caring person that I hate to "see" this kind of crap disrupting your life in such an unpleasant way.

Ok I will stop ramblin' now... but I am glad that you at least know that you have this community to come to with these problems. There are a lot of great people here and I know you are in a lot of our thoughts as you go through a difficult time.

Lauri

HelenM

Hi Darren,

I've probably said this already but, I've learned not to focus too much on what people say when they are angry/stressed. It tends to be irrational and include a lot of misattributed blame. Perhaps next time the two of you get into an argument you can shift the focus by asking her how work is going and just let her talk about that for a while, instead of what's wrong with you. Maybe that will remind her a) that you're still as good a listener as you ever were and b) that her life has some stress in it which is nothing to do with you.

Helen

Vicar Philip

Thanks to everyone and your heartfelt replies.

I have contemplated selling out and faking it. However, I've always prided myself on my honesty. It doesn't help that I am a very poor liar, and she would know it.

I'm leaning towards what captainpabst (great name!) suggested, namely finding some part of xianity I can tolerate and exploring it with my wife. And no, I am not opposed to going to church; if I had my druthers, of course, I wouldn't, but I offered long ago to continue going. I will keep my word. But, and this is a BIG but, the fucking ultimatum she keeps hanging in front of me is that IF I DON'T BELIEVE, she will LEAVE. Kind of rhymes. Sick.

So, friends, it appears that unless Big D here professes an undying love for gawd, my wife is bound and determined to LEAVE my ass. When and where is entirely up to her, as she has informed me. I can only hope that if I offer to explore some of the bible with her that I don't find particularly unpalatable, she will be pacified.

Don't think for a minute that I haven't been loving, caring, and helping out around the house. I'll tell you, with her working two jobs, I have become Mr. Mom. Make breakfast, pack lunches, load dishwasher, go to work, come home, make supper, load dishwasher, do some laundry, go to bed. Repeat 4 times. Weekends, multiply meals by 1.5. Yeah, I know: <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

And then I make time to be with her, love her, talk to her. Unless we get into a fucking religious fight. Then it's all out the goddamn window.

I think I'll stop for now. But when she gets home tonight I will bring up the possiblity of exploring some of the bible with her and look for a hopefully positive reaction.

Thanks again, infidels (and you too, Helen! ).

Darren



[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: x-xian ]</p>

Vicar Philip

One more question...

In my "new spirit of Christianity," am I still allowed to laugh at missus_gumby's funny as hell creations???

I hope so.....

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: x-xian ]</p>

Splat

Darren, I'm sorry for the mess you're in. I can only imagine your frustration (among other things).

It still sounds to me like your wife may have some very deep, very frightening doubts about her own belief, and you've tapped right into the heart of them.

I may be completely off base here, but it sounds like your wife really does believe (or wants to believe), as she said in that argument a couple of pages back, that if any part of the bible is wrong, the the whole thing is wrong. That's just asking for trouble (if it comes up again, you might focus on the internal inconsistencies--like the different versions of the resurrection--rather than evolution).

Looking for common ground in the bible is probably a kinder way to go though. Either way, the <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/" target="_blank">Skeptic's Annotated Bible</a> should be useful. It has a page devoted to <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/good.html" target="_blank">Good Stuff</a> in the bible, as well as pointing out contradictions and especially vile passages.

Another thought, if she continues with the threat of leaving you, is to remove yourself from the household for a few days or a week if possible, on the pretext that you need some time alone to think about your future together. It would give you some well-deserved peace and some cooling down time, and no doubt the realities of trying to work two jobs and raise two kids without a husband might cause her to rethink things.

Finally, I still think it sounds like the two of you desperately need to get to a marriage counselor. If you can't afford a professional one, maybe you could talk her into going with you to speak with a unitarian minister, or one from a more liberal xian denomination, if they'll talk to outsiders.

Good luck. We're pulling for you.

Vicar Philip

Splat,

Thanks for the advice.... and just to clarify... we in fact have four kids. The youngest is three. So she would definitely have her hands full trying to come up with a reliable, free babysitter who cooks the meals, does the dishes, and does the laundry.

Am I bitter??? Naaaaahhh.............

HelenM

Gosh, Darren, I didn't realize you had four kids! That's neat but you must both be very busy and that adds stress to your lives. Plus it sounds like your work schedules leave you little time for each other.

Anyway - this is a confrontational suggestion so maybe save it for your next argument: have you taken a Bible yet and opened it up and read 1 Cor 7:13 to your wife and said "If you believe the Bible, how come you don't believe this verse?" That's the verse that says "if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him." (That's a direct quote of the verse)

After all, she's flat-out lying if she says she believes the whole thing and she ignores the parts she doesn't like.

You could say "Either stop threatening divorce or stop pretending you believe a book that says you can't get divorced".

If you don't want to be so confrontational you can use I statements and appeal to her, saying "I don't understand why this verse appears to mean nothing to you!" and read it to her.

Oh, regarding what you can laugh at: yes you can, because you need all the laughs you can get, at the moment!

Helen

HelenM

pescifish is right, of course, that that's not a subject for this forum.

I probably won't start another thread elsewhere here about it either - no offense. Maybe you can think of a few reasons why

Perhaps you can back off being definitive with lying. You could be convinced in your own mind but back off telling her how certain you are that you'll never be re-converted. Maybe in that way you can leave her a bit more room to hope for your possible reconversion, if that's essential to her, at this time. As long as you don't feel that that that's encouraging too much false hope in her.

Anyway, if you do decide you're willing to look at the Bible with her that might give her so much hope you have to calm her down a bit .

When I get angry because I feel like I'm having to make all the concessions in a relationship (it could be any relationship) this is what I try to hold onto: that means I'm the stronger of the two of us. Because, the way I see it, being unable to compromise even when it could be to my benefit, is a sign of weakness, not strength. And - the reason I'm making concessions is because there's value to me in making this relationship work. Otherwise I could just walk away.

I hope that makes sense.

Helen

Hobbs

I think that is wise advice, but it opens up another can of worms about how to go about doing this. If you consult a lawyer without telling her and she finds out, I suspect that would really set her off and give her an excuse for thinking you are not honest and are really thinking of divorcing her, thus giving her an excuse to go through with her threats. But she could do the same if you do tell her, so you would need to be very careful about how you told her.

Have you pointed out 1 Cor 7:13 to her as Helen has suggested? I'd suggest thinking about doing that, saying that you do not want a divorce (and thus that she does not have the biblical grounds to divorce you) and that you will do whatever you can to work things out, but that since she continues to threaten divorce (in spite of what the Bible tells her to do) that you need to talk with a lawyer to know what to expect in case she follows through on her threat. If you have any contact with her church friends or her preacher, point out that verse to them and emphasize to them that you do not want a divorce (and probably also explain that you are worried enough about her threats that you feel you need to consult a lawyer to protect yourself in case she follows through). Do whatever you can to emphasize to her and to her friends, relatives, etc, that a divorce would be her move and the responsibility for that decision would be entirely on her shoulders, that she would be the only one to blame for taking that step.

I'd find it hard to resist responding by saying that she must care even less about her family if she is willing to split it up (and even violate a biblical command to do so), but, depending on your situation and how you think she would react, it may not be wise. It might, though, get her to think about the negative consequences of divorce for your children, so maybe you should point that out. Your call. Good luck.

southernhybrid

I think if I were you, I would tell my partner that I will explore parts of Xianity that might give us some common values and that at the same time, I expect her not to use those very unfair, childish threats of divorce. If you are willing to meet her part way, she must be willing to give up her manipulative threats. Marriage is all about compromise. Threatening to leave if I don't get my way is not an acceptable behavior in any marriage. You are a very tolerant man.

If she will not listen to your reasonable requests, then I think I agree with the others that have suggested you need a third party to moderate your disagreements. A reputable marriage counselor should at least be able to help the two of you express exactly what your fears and wishes are and then reach a compromise that the two of you can live with.


One thing I learned from my first marriage which failed after nine years is that one person can't solve the problems of the marriage alone. Both partners must be willing to work at improving things. Both must be willing to compromise. It sounds like you're making the effort here but I'm not so sure about her.

I'm sorry things haven't gotten much better for you. I hope you wife will realize how wrong her behavior has been before it's too late.