Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Soul Invictus · 06-30-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
John 10
30I and the Father are one."

Uh yeah, He did claim to be God.

EstherRose,

Care to offer any dialogue regarding my earlier response?

Evangelion · 07-01-2003, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Could someone explain this? I think I saw a minuscule example of this, w/o depth. I'd like to be familiarized with it.

Trinitarians use the three states of water (gas, solid, liquid) as an analogy for the ontological relationship between the three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit.) It is argued that since water can exist in three different forms, so too can God exist as three separate persons; ontologically one, but fuctionally three.

Needless to say, the analogy is useless. Water can indeed exist in three separate forms - but not concurrently, as Trinitarianism requires.

Soul Invictus · 07-01-2003, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evangelion
Trinitarians use the three states of water (gas, solid, liquid) as an analogy for the ontological relationship between the three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit.) It is argued that since water can exist in three different forms, so too can God exist as three separate persons; ontologically one, but fuctionally three.

Needless to say, the analogy is useless. Water can indeed exist in three separate forms - but not concurrently, as Trinitarianism requires.

Thank you.

Hey give a looksey to the threads I started. I need your help!

Evangelion · 07-01-2003, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Quote:

Hey give a looksey to the threads I started. I need your help!

OK, I'll check 'em out.

Soul Invictus · 07-01-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
That jesus was crucified because he claimed to be God.There is nothing in the OT about a coming messiah jesus.

These people that had him crucified had the OT and knew it well enough to know that he supposed blasphemed as proclaiming being God.

Please have a look at my post about OT messianic prophecies. I would need your input in the "coming messiah debate"

See my thread please. It is

Is Jesus the Messiah of the OT?

Soul Invictus · 07-15-2003, 08:38 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by River
In all blind hatred thats been going around between Israelis and Palestinians people tend to forget how similar Jews and Muslims really are.

Could you explain some of the similarities further for me?

In fact, there are numerous verses in the Bible and the Book of Enoch that shows that Jesus and all Biblical Prophets prayed with their face on the ground.

I've heard a lot about the Book of Enoch, however never really got the chance to look into it more. Would you care to refer me to a good source to read this...online or in paper? Also, is this book of significance in the Islamic faith? Is it held as a source, such as the Bible is to the Christian faith?

Now what does it mean to be Jewish? Jews trace back to Judah or the 12 Tribes of Jacob (Israelites).

Well, the jury is out on this one...I'm not aware of any evidence for their historicity, however if you have anything that offers support for their historical verification than please let me know. These tribes are probably representative or some historic people, however I'm holding them mythical in story like Abraham, Moses, and company.

Do you know the lost 10 Tribes are mostly the Muslims of today. The Israel of today only consists of 2 tribes.

Again, would you have any information to corroborate your claim. Also does your reference to Muslims allude to the conventional connotation of the term "Muslim", which would be an adherent of the Islamic faith, or are you speaking with respect to the non-sectarian and all inclusive definition of Muslim, being the "one who submits to God's will" reference?

We are closer to your Christian Gnostics than you think possible.....

Are you referring to in the spiritual sense or in ideology? I'm wondering if you're going the "Jews as an ethnicity" route..

Besides Jesus Christ has performed 4/5 Pillars of Islam. During his 2nd Coming he will perform Pilgrimage as well.

Not sure what these would be...could you elaborate please?

Sorry for the Islam 101, however I haven't been as exposed to Islam...primarily just heard about it. This is primarily for River, however any feedback is appreciated.

Regards,

Invictus

EstherRose · 07-15-2003, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Besides Jesus Christ has performed 4/5 Pillars of Islam. During his 2nd Coming he will perform Pilgrimage as well.

River,

Show me where you claim he did and I will show you where my Lord did not perform anything having to do with your religion.

The Jesus of the Christians and the bible is not the Jesus of your koran. Your version of him is a lie.

Doctor X · 07-15-2003, 11:33 PM

And if the version of the NT is also a lie?

Both may have a lie . . . they just cannot expect them convince others.

--J.D.

Diotima · 07-15-2003, 11:56 PM

I have exhausted this subject here... http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=57213

We are talking about clinical obsession...

I have observed that people here try to analyze the Christian creed of the first 8 centuries of the Church the way you are taught the Bible, ignoring the historical context and the people who created it... this is completely wrong and that's why you end up chasing your tails.

Soul Invictus · 07-16-2003, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
River,

Show me where you claim he did and I will show you where my Lord did not perform anything having to do with your religion.

The Jesus of the Christians and the bible is not the Jesus of your koran. Your version of him is a lie.

EstherRose,

Isn't this a bit unconciliatory, and warlike? Their version is a lie? That seems a bit dogmatic. Who made you the custodian of the truth? Are you saying that your version has no lies or agendas?

07-15-2003, 08:38 PM	#66
Soul Invictus Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 15,576	Re: Re: Jesus Christ [QUOTE]Originally posted by River In all blind hatred thats been going around between Israelis and Palestinians people tend to forget how similar Jews and Muslims really are. Could you explain some of the similarities further for me? In fact, there are numerous verses in the Bible and the Book of Enoch that shows that Jesus and all Biblical Prophets prayed with their face on the ground. I've heard a lot about the Book of Enoch, however never really got the chance to look into it more. Would you care to refer me to a good source to read this...online or in paper? Also, is this book of significance in the Islamic faith? Is it held as a source, such as the Bible is to the Christian faith? Now what does it mean to be Jewish? Jews trace back to Judah or the 12 Tribes of Jacob (Israelites). Well, the jury is out on this one...I'm not aware of any evidence for their historicity, however if you have anything that offers support for their historical verification than please let me know. These tribes are probably representative or some historic people, however I'm holding them mythical in story like Abraham, Moses, and company. Do you know the lost 10 Tribes are mostly the Muslims of today. The Israel of today only consists of 2 tribes. Again, would you have any information to corroborate your claim. Also does your reference to Muslims allude to the conventional connotation of the term "Muslim", which would be an adherent of the Islamic faith, or are you speaking with respect to the non-sectarian and all inclusive definition of Muslim, being the "one who submits to God's will" reference? We are closer to your Christian Gnostics than you think possible..... Are you referring to in the spiritual sense or in ideology? I'm wondering if you're going the "Jews as an ethnicity" route.. Besides Jesus Christ has performed 4/5 Pillars of Islam. During his 2nd Coming he will perform Pilgrimage as well. Not sure what these would be...could you elaborate please? Sorry for the Islam 101, however I haven't been as exposed to Islam...primarily just heard about it. This is primarily for River, however any feedback is appreciated. Regards, Invictus

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07-15-2003, 11:33 PM	#68
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	And if the version of the NT is also a lie? Both may have a lie . . . they just cannot expect them convince others. --J.D.

07-15-2003, 11:56 PM	#69
Diotima Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Europe Posts: 49	I have exhausted this subject here... http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=57213 We are talking about clinical obsession... I have observed that people here try to analyze the Christian creed of the first 8 centuries of the Church the way you are taught the Bible, ignoring the historical context and the people who created it... this is completely wrong and that's why you end up chasing your tails.

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