Majestyk

I'm recalling something about "thou shalt not bear false witness"?

Jet Grind

I'd just like to clear a few things up about our Founding Father's religious beliefs.

The only real out and out deist among the figures of the American Revolution was Thomas Paine. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franlklin were arguabley deists, but Franklin didn't hold onto the traditional deistic belief in non-intevention and Jefferson considered himself a Unitarian (incase you've never read the Jefferson Bible, it's basically cut outs from the New Testament of Jesus' teachings. Thomas Jefferson held the popular position of "rational Christianity" but it wasn't too far removed from the deism of the time.) James Madison, despite popular claims, was not a deist. He was, to my knowledge, a Presbyterian Christian (his beliefs are evident in his writings, if you've ever read the Federalist Papers then you have noted his belief in the inherent sinfulness of man). John Adams was not a deist, but he rejected the doctrines of the trinity and the ressurection. That's about all I know, if I've made any errors feel free to point them out.

lpetrich

I wonder whether "Muffinstuffer" has noticed the part about "no establishment of religion", because "establishment of religion" is what "to include Christianity and Christian beliefs in general in the everyday workings of the government" amounts to in practice.

And what would count as "Christianity"? Which sect would be the favored one? Would it be those who speak in tongues? Would it be those who consider speaking in tongues to be demonic? Would it be Catholics? Would it be those who consider Catholics idolators who are subjects of a foreign power?

And it's curious that none of the Constitution's writers ever wrote a tract describing how ever single sentence of that document is derived from the Bible. I think that it would have been politically expedient to do so, no matter how bogus or contrived the argumentation would have to be.

Think of it. How much does the Constitution have in common with the Bible?

Where are the elected leaders of the Bible? Where are the legislative bodies of the Bible? Where does the Bible advocate freedom to practice any religion? Where does the Bible demand that governments not take sides in religion? Where does the Bible advocate jury trials? Etc.

How is it that much of our political vocabulary ultimately comes from Greece and Rome and not from the Bible? Where does the word "democracy" come from? Where does the word "republic" come from? What did the Senate get its name from?

Toto

Some secularists like to think that the founding fathers were Deists, but it is probably true that most of them were Christian of some variety, although some were Christian for public consumption and doubters in private.

But they agreed that the government should not be dictating religious beliefs or practices. They had the bad examples from Europe of heretics being jailed and killed, and of horrible religious wars.

twisted brother

It's interesting to me that those who want to interpret the constitutions prohibition against the establishment of religion liberally as just no specific xian religion, are those who interpret the bible most literally (though they pick and choose the most convenient rules).

The First Amendment says exactly:
We know that they were very precise about their words. If they had meant a branch or type of christianity, being fully apprised of the existence of other religions, they would have said it.

Though I have not myself yet verified it, the "Six Historic Americans" document seems well researched and clearly written.

If I must have a religion to make "them" happy, let me just say that I think my right hand is very, very important, and I perform rituals to it frequently. I am a Onanist.

SLD

Puleeeze. Show us the evidence. Where do you find any quotes from the leaders of the founding generation - especially Madison the architect of our Constitution - that shows they intended to include Christianity and Christian beliefs in the everyday workings of government? Utter complete right wing horseshit. Madison actually opposed Congressional Chaplains and even Military Chaplains.

SLD

SLD

Well, yes, Benjamin Franklin was a deist who believed that God could and did intervene in men's affairs if you want to be technical. I suppose that doesn't make him a strict Deist, but I would still call him and Jefferson one.

Madison was not a Presbyterian - he was technically an Episcopalian. However, he kept his religious views private and close to him - but he appears to be pretty much a deist. As a student at Princeton, there are some indications that he rejected Witherspoon's justifications for Christianity, and his later writings indicate that he held religious belief in general in low regard.

His Federalist views were not influenced so much by any inherent view of man's "sinfulness" in the religious sense, but by his reading of classical Greek and Roman history - in particular Plato's objections to democracy and the failure of the Ancient city states to protect individual liberties.

SLD

SLD

Amen Ipetrich. The founders were greatly influenced by their classical education which emphasized that the highest point that civilized man had achieved was the Greek and Roman Civilizations of the Ancient world. While their view of such societies was idealized and we now understand it far better, there can be little doubt that the founders had in mind a new Rome for the new World and the founding had nothing to do with their religious beliefs, which were minimal at best.

One great example of this is the great seal and motto, Annuit Coeptis - taken straight from Virgil's Aeneid, where Aeneus asks that fortune favor their great undertaking (i.e. the founding of Rome). The founders knew their classical scholarship all too well.

Radcliffe Emerson

I always laugh at passages in the bible concerning liberty, and the notion that liberty in our nation comes from the bible.

Passages like "obey your leaders without question, for they are ordained by God", and all of the passages in the bible that condone slavery certainly do not spell out liberty to me.

Shake

"Founding Fathers"

Go ahead, say it. It's OK. They were all men! That much we are sure of, so don't give in to the PC "Framers" bullshit. FF is quite accurate and shouldn't be changed.

Radcliffe, thanks for that quote, I'll have to remember that the next time someone tries to argue that we're a Xian nation.