Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-09-2002, 04:15 PM

Hi,

Does anyone know of a book, article, or anything that discusses ethics and/or morality and god belief witht he following condition.

I am looking for any literature where the author attempts to show that the idea that morality must come from an authority is not really morality or is at least a defective form of ethics.

Any recommendations? Is my question clear?

Thanks!

DC

Dark Jedi · 10-09-2002, 04:58 PM

Look in to the <a href="http://www.apologeticspress.org" target="_blank">www.apologeticspress.org</a> for this stuff.

I bet C.S. Lewis has done it. probably to death.

JerryM · 10-09-2002, 07:20 PM

"Ethics Without God," by Kai Nielsen, revised edition, Prometheus Books, 1990. Somewhat heavy reading, but an in-depth analysis of how and why an ethical system can exist independently of any supernatural entity.

Also, you should read the old standard "Why I Am Not a Christian," by Bertrand Russell, Touchstone Books, 1957. Great series of essays on religion, morals, etc. Basic required reading for any freethinker.

pug846 · 10-10-2002, 06:48 AM

Anything from Nietzsche.

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-10-2002, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JerryM:
"Ethics Without God," by Kai Nielsen, revised edition, Prometheus Books, 1990. Somewhat heavy reading, but an in-depth analysis of how and why an ethical system can exist independently of any supernatural entity.

I have the older edition. Its very thin compaed to the new edition.

As I recall he discusses how morality can be independent of god belief. However, this is not the same as what I was looking for. I was looking for a discussion that tries to show that a strict god based morality *is not* morality at all.

I don't recall that Nielsen does that. However, I read the book a long time ago so I could be wrong.

Quote:

Originally posted by JerryM:
Also, you should read the old standard "Why I Am Not a Christian," by Bertrand Russell, Touchstone Books, 1957. Great series of essays on religion, morals, etc. Basic required reading for any freethinker.

As I recall Mr Russel doesn't explain what I am needing either. If I am wrong please let me know.

DC

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalChicken ]

JerryM · 10-10-2002, 12:01 PM

For DC:

There's a section in "Ethics" by William Frankena, Prentice-Hall, 4th ed, 1965 titled "Theological Voluntarism." This is Frankena's term for an ethical system based on the will of a deity. He discusses the logical problems with this type of ethical theory. As I recall, it's only about a page and a half discussion, but this might be closer to what you're looking for. I believe he goes into the Euthypro dilemma (is it wrong because that is God's will, or does God forbid it because it is wrong.) Russell does mention this very briefly in Why I Am Not a Christian. You might just try entering "theological voluntarism" in a search engine and see what comes up.

Happy hunting!

Psycho Economist · 10-16-2002, 08:35 PM

Not withstanding what JerryM said to the contrary, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody saying that an ethical system of devine fiat isn't an ethical system.

While those of us with an empirical bent might be more swayed by an argument from evidence, an argument from authority is still one way of trying to sift things through...

That said, you might want to consider Peirce, C. S. (1966) Charles S. Peirce, Selected writings: Values in an universe of chance. He looks at the strengths and shortcomings of various forms of reasoning: naieve empiricism (called tenacity), argument from authority, a priori reasoning and rational empiricism. You might be able to generalize from that... I've not read it; it's a cite in my research methods text.

10-09-2002, 04:15 PM	#1
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	Book or article needed. Ethics and god belief Hi, Does anyone know of a book, article, or anything that discusses ethics and/or morality and god belief witht he following condition. I am looking for any literature where the author attempts to show that the idea that morality must come from an authority is not really morality or is at least a defective form of ethics. Any recommendations? Is my question clear? Thanks! DC

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10-09-2002, 04:58 PM	#2
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	Look in to the <a href="http://www.apologeticspress.org" target="_blank">www.apologeticspress.org</a> for this stuff. I bet C.S. Lewis has done it. probably to death.

10-09-2002, 07:20 PM	#3
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	"Ethics Without God," by Kai Nielsen, revised edition, Prometheus Books, 1990. Somewhat heavy reading, but an in-depth analysis of how and why an ethical system can exist independently of any supernatural entity. Also, you should read the old standard "Why I Am Not a Christian," by Bertrand Russell, Touchstone Books, 1957. Great series of essays on religion, morals, etc. Basic required reading for any freethinker.

10-10-2002, 06:48 AM	#4
pug846 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,587	Anything from Nietzsche.

10-10-2002, 12:01 PM	#6
JerryM Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO. Posts: 1,100	For DC: There's a section in "Ethics" by William Frankena, Prentice-Hall, 4th ed, 1965 titled "Theological Voluntarism." This is Frankena's term for an ethical system based on the will of a deity. He discusses the logical problems with this type of ethical theory. As I recall, it's only about a page and a half discussion, but this might be closer to what you're looking for. I believe he goes into the Euthypro dilemma (is it wrong because that is God's will, or does God forbid it because it is wrong.) Russell does mention this very briefly in Why I Am Not a Christian. You might just try entering "theological voluntarism" in a search engine and see what comes up. Happy hunting!

10-16-2002, 08:35 PM	#7
Psycho Economist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 854	Not withstanding what JerryM said to the contrary, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody saying that an ethical system of devine fiat isn't an ethical system. While those of us with an empirical bent might be more swayed by an argument from evidence, an argument from authority is still one way of trying to sift things through... That said, you might want to consider Peirce, C. S. (1966) Charles S. Peirce, Selected writings: Values in an universe of chance. He looks at the strengths and shortcomings of various forms of reasoning: naieve empiricism (called tenacity), argument from authority, a priori reasoning and rational empiricism. You might be able to generalize from that... I've not read it; it's a cite in my research methods text.

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