WJ

Hi Bill!

I would agree. Conscious existence is not the only illusion here, so is free-will!



[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

The Dionysian

"Once again, basically stating that each man makes his own essence as he lives, he is nothing but what he makes of himself, correct?"

Correct.

Samhain

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to elaborate?

The Dionysian

"Perhaps you'd be kind enough to elaborate?"

I think what he's saying is that existentialists saying that man is free or "condemned to be free" is in conflict with psychological determinism which states that free will is an illusion. So, if psychological determinism is true then there cannot be a true existentialist.

Samhain

Perhaps...I thought his satire was more directly aimed at the idea that we "make" what it is to be human by our actions. *Shrugs* It matters not, really, however, if you are correct, and he is speaking of determinism, that would amuse me greatly.

Bill

Actually, my satirical remark was more-like a sawed-off shotgun, fired and then examined to see what I might accidently hit.

== Bill

Samhain

I think you may have caught a civilian in the crossfire, Bill.

Infinity Lover

Agreed. The meaning of life is to make it as meaningful as possible. (for some odd reason, some people find it meaningfull to try and figure out what the meaning of life is. Which reminds me of a bit of Chinese philosphy that states that you find happyness when you stop pursuing it
)

I for one do however think we are not condemned to be free, but rather condemned to be the slaves of our beliefs. (And it would be a misconception to think religious beliefs are the only ones)

hinduwoman

The existentialists would urgue that beliefs are chosen freely as well; a rational human being is at liberty to reject them.
I think only Heidegger acknowledged the "factity of the world".

Oresta

strubenuff,
No "in depth" response here. Defiant Heretic says succinctly what I discovered in my first encounter with Existentialism, lo, forty some years ago.

That is what continues to resonate for me, an atheist, now on the cusp of my eightieth decade. From Kierkegaard's "dreaded leap" to Sartre's "life is absurd" the message for me was always that only I can give meaning and authenticity to my one-time-around existence.
Even when, as a green undergrad, I read De Unamuno's careful "as if" assertion, "Let life be lived in such a way, with such dedication and goodness and the highest values, that if, after all, if is annilhation that finally awaits us, that will be an injustice," the message to me was: What comes after death is irrelevant; it's all up to me how I live this once-only life I get, and there are no guideline but those which are self-imposed.

My intrusion here into a learned debate is to point out Existentialism is a viable life-style. I take my name, Oresta, from the Intoduction of Sartre's Being and Nothingness wherein Orestes shakes his fist at the gods and cries out, "I am my own destinly!."

Yeah, I know O. went on to finally appease the, Olympus Mafia and avenged his dad's murder with more extraneous blood. However, note I have feminized Aeschylus' character from Orestes to a sensible woman who would would walk away from all that incestuous, century's old blood feud shit, as would any sensible woman.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]</p>