Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EstherRose · 06-22-2003, 01:15 AM

Jesus in the Gospels of the New Testament acknowledged His divinity.

The Koran changed who Jesus was through what at best can be called incomplete information and misinterpretation. It is not surprising that you do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God. You were taught differently.

RED DAVE · 06-22-2003, 01:58 AM

From EstherRose:

Quote:

Jesus in the Gospels of the New Testament acknowledged His divinity.

1) Who knows what he really said, as the Gospels were written down decades after he died. (Remember George Washington and the cherry tree?)

2) If you look at what is actually written in the Gospels, even these quotes are equivocal.

RED DAVE

chimaira · 06-22-2003, 09:53 AM

Grieved but in John 14,16 it is talked about another truth spirit, therefore if this passage talks about the esprit-saint, there is a holy other spirit!!!

chimaira · 06-22-2003, 10:02 AM

Muhammad saws an European? proof?

J�sus never has says that it was God and if it had it says it was necessary him to prove it, this is as if I say that I am superman, if I do not prove it the people will throw to me hamburgers,lool

EstherRose · 06-22-2003, 11:59 AM

Yes, Jesus did say He was God.

John 10
30I and the Father are one.

John 8:24
24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[1] you will indeed die in your sins."

John 8:28
28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

In the verses from John 8, the original Greek has Jesus referring to himself as I Am the phrase used by God to refer to Himself.

chimaira · 06-22-2003, 01:41 PM

Anyone can call God "Father" according to the Bible

"I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17 RSV 1952) Jesus, at the end of his mission, made it clear that God is not only his father, but father of all, and God of all, and even his own God whom he worshipped throughout his earthly career.

We cry, Abba, Father. (Romans 8:15 KJV 1611) Here the writer is Paul and he made it clear that anyone can address God as "Father." Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:

". . . Do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. (Matthew 23:1,9 NIV 1984)

According to Matthew, Jesus taught everyone to call God 'Father'. He said to them: "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name . . .' " (Matthew 6:9 NIV)

Jesus made it clear that he is not God

"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18)

A man had ran up and knelt before Jesus and called him "Good Teacher." Jesus used the opportunity to make it clear to people that they must not praise him more than a human being deserves to be praised.

Jesus depends on God for Authority: God depends on no one

"I can do nothing of my own authority" (John 5:30)
"I do as the Father has commanded me." (John 14:31 RSV)

Needless to say, God does not receive commands from anyone.

"The words that I say to you I do not speak of my own authority." (John 14:10 RSV) "I do nothing of my own authority but speak thus as the Father has taught me." (John 8:28 RSV) God has full authority, and full knowledge. He cannot be taught, but He teaches.

Jesus is not Equal to "The Father"

"The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28 RSV)

People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe--Jesus or the people?

Jesus Does Not Know Everything

Speaking of the Last Day, Jesus said:
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)

Did Jesus Raise Himself up?

God raised him up. (Acts 2:24)
Jesus did not have power to raise himself up. God had to raise him up, as the author of Acts says.

Jesus prayed to God: God prays to no one

"Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt." (Mark 14:32)

Jesus fell on his face and prayed to God, begging God to save him from crucifixion. This also shows that Jesus had a will different from God's will. The writers of Matthew, Mark, and Luke tell us that it was Jesus's wish to be saved from crucifixion, but it was God's will to let the crucifixion take place. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)

Jesus did not know the tree had no fruit

He [Jesus] was hungry. And on seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it , he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. (Mark 11 12-13)

When he saw that the tree had leaves, he thought that he might find fruit on it. But when he came up close to the tree he realised there were no fruits. After all, it was not even fig season.

Jesus referred to as Servant of God

"Behold my servant whom I have chosen." (Matthew 12:18 In this passage God calls Jesus His servant)
The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus. (Acts 3:13)
For truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus. . . (Acts 4:27)
Everyone, except for God, are God's servants. Jesus, too, is God's servant.

Who was real Worker of Miracles?

Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (Acts 2:22 KJV)

People say that since Jesus worked many miracles, he must be God. But here we see that God did the miracles; Jesus was the instrument God used to accomplish His work. Jesus was a man whom God approved of. This means he was a righteous man.

Jesus cannot guarantee positions

"To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father" (Matthew 20:23)

Therefore if we want to secure our position with God in the life hereafter we must turn to God and ask Him.

A Misunderstood saying

I and the Father are one. (John 10:30)

People like to quote this saying, but they forget the following saying:
John 17:11 Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

This shows that what was meant was one in purpose, not one in substance as people think. The disciples could not become one human, but they can pursue the same goal. That is to say, they can be one in purpose, just as Jesus and the Father are one in purpose.

Did Jesus say everything John says he said?

John 14:9 Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life.

John 8:12 I am the light of the world.
John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:7 I am the door of the sheep.
John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life.
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life.
John 15:1 I am the true vine.
Christian scholars tell us that if Jesus had made all these fantastic claims about himself, the first three gospels would surely have recorded them. Mark was written around 70 C.E., followed by Matthew and Luke somewhere between 80-90 C.E. John, written around 100 C.E., was the last of the four canonized gospels. The Christian scholar James Dunn writes in his book The Evidence for Jesus:

"If they were part of the original words of Jesus himself, how could it be that only John picked them up and none of the others? Call it scholarly skepticism if you like, but I find it almost incredible that such sayings should have been neglected had they been known as a feature of Jesus' teaching. If the 'I ams' had been part of the original tradition, it is very hard indeed to explain why none of the other three evangelists made use of them." (The Evidence for Jesus, p. 36)

Similarly, the New American Bible tells us in its introduction, under the heading How to Read Your Bible:

"It is difficult to know whether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus are written exactly as he spoke them. . . . The Church was so firmly convinced that . . . Jesus . . . taught through her, that she expressed her teaching in the form of Jesus' sayings." (St. Joseph Medium Size Edition, p.23)

What we have in John, then is what people were saying about Jesus at the time John was written (about 70 years after Jesus was raised up). The writer of John simply expressed those ideas as if Jesus had said them. Rev. James Dunn says further in his book that, almost certainly, the writer of the fourth gospel "was not concerned with the sort of questions which trouble some Christians today -- Did Jesus actually say this? Did he use these precise words? and so on." (The Evidence for Jesus, p. 43)

Scholars have concluded that this gospel was originally written in a simple form. But this gospel was later on, as the New Jerusalem Bible says, "amplified and developed in several stages during the second half of the first century." (The New Jerusalem Bible: Introduction to John, p. 1742)

It says further:

"It is today freely accepted that the fourth Gospel underwent a complex development before it reached its final form." (p. 1742)

On a previous page, the same Bible says:

"It would seem that we have only the end-stage of a slow process that has brought together not only component parts of different ages, but also corrections, additions and sometimes even more than one revision of the same discourse." (The New Jerusalem Bible, p. 1739)

The New American Bible says that most scholars "have come to the conclusion that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing in which homogeneous materials were added to a shorter original." (The New American Bible, Revised New Testament, p. 143)

mark9950 · 06-22-2003, 03:07 PM

a white european according to muslims.

How do I know?

I posted a tread on this website and asked if muhammad was a white european.The moderator affirmed that muhammad was a white european

http://www.talkaboutislam.com/

I do not remember the tread but if you search for my treads mark99501 you may find them,or you could join and ask yourself.

EstherRose · 06-22-2003, 05:59 PM

Chimaira,

I noticed in your profile that you call yourself a Christian. May I ask what you believe if you do not believe in the divinity of Christ? What is it about your beliefs that makes you a Christian.

River · 06-24-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
a white european according to muslims.

How do I know?

I posted a tread on this website and asked if muhammad(pbuh) was a white european.The moderator affirmed that muhammad(pbuh) was a white european

http://www.talkaboutislam.com/

I do not remember the tread but if you search for my treads mark99501 you may find them,or you could join and ask yourself.

wow, the moderator ( of that website) confirmed that Muhammad(pbuh) was white?

quite interesting...

actually all jokes aside, Prophet Noah(pbuh) was white atleast based on Scripture.

Mageth · 06-24-2003, 03:10 PM

Yes, Jesus did say He was God.

So? Hindus and Buddhists recognize their divinity as well. According to Hinduism, we're all divine. Jesus' claim to divinity would not be strange to a Hindu; the Christian claim that Jesus is God exclusively (and not anyone else) would be absurd to a Hindu.

Jesus' supposed divinity claims such as "I and the Father are One" could be viewed from the Eastern perspective as claims along the lines of Hinduism/Buddhism that all of us are manifestations of the divine.

06-22-2003, 09:53 AM	#43
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	hello Grieved but in John 14,16 it is talked about another truth spirit, therefore if this passage talks about the esprit-saint, there is a holy other spirit!!!

06-22-2003, 10:02 AM	#44
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	hello all Muhammad saws an European? proof? J�sus never has says that it was God and if it had it says it was necessary him to prove it, this is as if I say that I am superman, if I do not prove it the people will throw to me hamburgers,lool

06-22-2003, 01:41 PM	#46
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	hello Anyone can call God "Father" according to the Bible "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17 RSV 1952) Jesus, at the end of his mission, made it clear that God is not only his father, but father of all, and God of all, and even his own God whom he worshipped throughout his earthly career. We cry, Abba, Father. (Romans 8:15 KJV 1611) Here the writer is Paul and he made it clear that anyone can address God as "Father." Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ". . . Do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. (Matthew 23:1,9 NIV 1984) According to Matthew, Jesus taught everyone to call God 'Father'. He said to them: "This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name . . .' " (Matthew 6:9 NIV) Jesus made it clear that he is not God "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18) A man had ran up and knelt before Jesus and called him "Good Teacher." Jesus used the opportunity to make it clear to people that they must not praise him more than a human being deserves to be praised. Jesus depends on God for Authority: God depends on no one "I can do nothing of my own authority" (John 5:30) "I do as the Father has commanded me." (John 14:31 RSV) Needless to say, God does not receive commands from anyone. "The words that I say to you I do not speak of my own authority." (John 14:10 RSV) "I do nothing of my own authority but speak thus as the Father has taught me." (John 8:28 RSV) God has full authority, and full knowledge. He cannot be taught, but He teaches. Jesus is not Equal to "The Father" "The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28 RSV) People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe--Jesus or the people? Jesus Does Not Know Everything Speaking of the Last Day, Jesus said: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36) Did Jesus Raise Himself up? God raised him up. (Acts 2:24) Jesus did not have power to raise himself up. God had to raise him up, as the author of Acts says. Jesus prayed to God: God prays to no one "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt." (Mark 14:32) Jesus fell on his face and prayed to God, begging God to save him from crucifixion. This also shows that Jesus had a will different from God's will. The writers of Matthew, Mark, and Luke tell us that it was Jesus's wish to be saved from crucifixion, but it was God's will to let the crucifixion take place. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46) Jesus did not know the tree had no fruit He [Jesus] was hungry. And on seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it , he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. (Mark 11 12-13) When he saw that the tree had leaves, he thought that he might find fruit on it. But when he came up close to the tree he realised there were no fruits. After all, it was not even fig season. Jesus referred to as Servant of God "Behold my servant whom I have chosen." (Matthew 12:18 In this passage God calls Jesus His servant) The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus. (Acts 3:13) For truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus. . . (Acts 4:27) Everyone, except for God, are God's servants. Jesus, too, is God's servant. Who was real Worker of Miracles? Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (Acts 2:22 KJV) People say that since Jesus worked many miracles, he must be God. But here we see that God did the miracles; Jesus was the instrument God used to accomplish His work. Jesus was a man whom God approved of. This means he was a righteous man. Jesus cannot guarantee positions "To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father" (Matthew 20:23) Therefore if we want to secure our position with God in the life hereafter we must turn to God and ask Him. A Misunderstood saying I and the Father are one. (John 10:30) People like to quote this saying, but they forget the following saying: John 17:11 Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. This shows that what was meant was one in purpose, not one in substance as people think. The disciples could not become one human, but they can pursue the same goal. That is to say, they can be one in purpose, just as Jesus and the Father are one in purpose. Did Jesus say everything John says he said? John 14:9 Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life. John 8:12 I am the light of the world. John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am. John 10:7 I am the door of the sheep. John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life. John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. John 15:1 I am the true vine. Christian scholars tell us that if Jesus had made all these fantastic claims about himself, the first three gospels would surely have recorded them. Mark was written around 70 C.E., followed by Matthew and Luke somewhere between 80-90 C.E. John, written around 100 C.E., was the last of the four canonized gospels. The Christian scholar James Dunn writes in his book The Evidence for Jesus: "If they were part of the original words of Jesus himself, how could it be that only John picked them up and none of the others? Call it scholarly skepticism if you like, but I find it almost incredible that such sayings should have been neglected had they been known as a feature of Jesus' teaching. If the 'I ams' had been part of the original tradition, it is very hard indeed to explain why none of the other three evangelists made use of them." (The Evidence for Jesus, p. 36) Similarly, the New American Bible tells us in its introduction, under the heading How to Read Your Bible: "It is difficult to know whether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus are written exactly as he spoke them. . . . The Church was so firmly convinced that . . . Jesus . . . taught through her, that she expressed her teaching in the form of Jesus' sayings." (St. Joseph Medium Size Edition, p.23) What we have in John, then is what people were saying about Jesus at the time John was written (about 70 years after Jesus was raised up). The writer of John simply expressed those ideas as if Jesus had said them. Rev. James Dunn says further in his book that, almost certainly, the writer of the fourth gospel "was not concerned with the sort of questions which trouble some Christians today -- Did Jesus actually say this? Did he use these precise words? and so on." (The Evidence for Jesus, p. 43) Scholars have concluded that this gospel was originally written in a simple form. But this gospel was later on, as the New Jerusalem Bible says, "amplified and developed in several stages during the second half of the first century." (The New Jerusalem Bible: Introduction to John, p. 1742) It says further: "It is today freely accepted that the fourth Gospel underwent a complex development before it reached its final form." (p. 1742) On a previous page, the same Bible says: "It would seem that we have only the end-stage of a slow process that has brought together not only component parts of different ages, but also corrections, additions and sometimes even more than one revision of the same discourse." (The New Jerusalem Bible, p. 1739) The New American Bible says that most scholars "have come to the conclusion that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing in which homogeneous materials were added to a shorter original." (The New American Bible, Revised New Testament, p. 143)

06-22-2003, 03:07 PM	#47
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Yes muhammad was a white european according to muslims. How do I know? I posted a tread on this website and asked if muhammad was a white european.The moderator affirmed that muhammad was a white european http://www.talkaboutislam.com/ I do not remember the tread but if you search for my treads mark99501 you may find them,or you could join and ask yourself.

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06-22-2003, 01:15 AM	#41
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Jesus in the Gospels of the New Testament acknowledged His divinity. The Koran changed who Jesus was through what at best can be called incomplete information and misinterpretation. It is not surprising that you do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God. You were taught differently.

06-22-2003, 11:59 AM	#45
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Yes, Jesus did say He was God. John 10 30I and the Father are one. John 8:24 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[1] you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:28 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. In the verses from John 8, the original Greek has Jesus referring to himself as I Am the phrase used by God to refer to Himself.

06-22-2003, 05:59 PM	#48
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Chimaira, I noticed in your profile that you call yourself a Christian. May I ask what you believe if you do not believe in the divinity of Christ? What is it about your beliefs that makes you a Christian.

06-24-2003, 03:10 PM	#50
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Yes, Jesus did say He was God. So? Hindus and Buddhists recognize their divinity as well. According to Hinduism, we're all divine. Jesus' claim to divinity would not be strange to a Hindu; the Christian claim that Jesus is God exclusively (and not anyone else) would be absurd to a Hindu. Jesus' supposed divinity claims such as "I and the Father are One" could be viewed from the Eastern perspective as claims along the lines of Hinduism/Buddhism that all of us are manifestations of the divine.

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