Bumble Bee Tuna

I think for God, Yoda's wisdom applies more than anywhere else. There is no try, there is only do.
How can an omnipotent being "try"? And why would he have waited to respond until phlebas was no longer "accepting calls" instead of answering the first time?

-B

KJELLMUSIC

What if?
WHAT IF!?
Whaaaaaat if?
What iiiiiif?
What if, what if, what if?

The thread is dead, the question dodging, changing story, making shit up as he goes is in full swing!
Why do ALL xians do this (well, I know why but it sure gets old)? They have nothing to back it up with but they just want to keep talking!
Funny that his profile lists "reason" as his basic beliefs, he sure hasn't shown much.

phlebas

You're getting quite good at ignoring the tougher points in my posts

<strong>How is it a stretch? It is a legitimate question. How would you know if God was 'calling you back'?</strong>

Ummm... I would hear some sort of ringing?

We're not talking about a friend calling when your stereo is up too loud. This is an allegedly infinitely powerful being who has decided to answer my prayers 20 years after the fact.

Remember, I already made the first move. Expecting me to continually make move after move sounds like the only way to ease your doubts is through brainwashing yourself.

If that's the best God can do, then he's an embarrassment as a deity.

<strong>What if God has been trying to get in touch with you but your attitude towards God disallows it?</strong>

Then he's still an embarrassment as a deity. I am perfectly capable of getting someone's attention no matter what their attitude towards me is. Yet I don't claim to be more powerful than God. (Although I'm starting to think I might be. Me and 6 billion of my closest friends.)

wdog

SOMMS,

good question, but we have already refuted that last sentence. If the god of the bible exists, then all the other people of the world, who claim to have the experience you do, would all say that they are in touch with the god of your bible. Most people who share your experience have a much different theology than you, and a wide variety of experiences. Therefore the god of the bible does not exist since your 'evidence' points to many possible definitions of god. If one god was really behind this, I'm sure all of you 'in touch' types would agree as to his nature.

I never seen such a low and subjective standard of proof as yours. Attitude dependendent evidence from personal experience would not be permissible in a court of law, scientific laboratory, or anywhere else where rational investigation is required. Objective evidence is required most everywhere but religion.

The real question here SOMMS is why a god would want to make evidence of his existence attitude dependent. To claim that the xtian god doesn't care whether or not we seek or find him is not standard xtian theology. Xtians like to say how much god cares about each and everyone of us and is concerned about our destiny. If someone really loves you, they will find you, not simply wait and take a chance that you may miss them.

On the other hand I could understand making a relationship attitude dependent, that is how we humans work as relationships are two way streets. But to make our very existence not OBJECTIVELY obvious to loved ones is very perverse.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Goliath,
Just so I understand your position Goliath: Is it that
A-you have evidence but don't feel you have to show it since you made no claim
or are you saying
B-you have no evidence?


Thoughts and comments welcomed,


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas ]</p>

Biff the unclean

Can you offer any reason why IF God did exists...ones attitude towards God would not in any way affect their revelation of God?
Yes, because revelation is the action of the one who reveals. It is independent of the observer and the observer's attitude.
If God exist and if God is a "perfect being," as advertised, then His revelation must then, by necessity, be perfect.
Revelation that fails to revel is imperfect and therefore cannot be from a perfect being, and therefore not from God.
If one's attitude prevents God from carrying out his revelation then one's attitude has control over God's abilities. If one can control God then one is more powerful than God. God is then no longer a god.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

phlebas,
I am sorry. This was certainly not intended. This may, however, simply be because I agree with you.

For example, in your last post about what a relationship with God would be like...I agree for the most part. If God exists...then God's relationship with us is analogous to our relationship with a pet rock. Actually...I would think an ant would be more analogous since a rock is not sentient and we are.

I would also agree with you that we cannot help God. How could we possibly help God? Well, we can't.


So your right. From God's perspective...hes not going to get a chess partner out of the relationship. But the key ingredients are there, namely love and trust. From our perspective, however, the relationship has love, trust, patience, reliance, etc.


Again, if I have missed some of your tougher points it was unintentional. Please let me know which ones you wish to discuss.


Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. Relative to your phone metaphore what could that be?

[suggestion]It could be a conversation you might have in web forum.[/suggestion]


...or he's been responding for 20 years and because of your attitude you haven't been listening or haven't been able to hear.


First, I'm not expecting you to do anything. You sound pretty set in your ways and, frankly, in all probability you will disregard all ideas of seeking God...posed by God, me or anybody else.

Unfortunately, this is exactly my point.

Second, I'm not asking you to 'make move after move'. I'm simply saying that if God does exist then our revelation/relationship with him is determined by our attitude.

I'm not sure how your attitude was at some point in the past, but it is pretty obvious what your attitude is right now.

Would you agree that IF God did exist and our attitude towards him matters THEN your attitude my be hampering any evidence/revelation of him?


<strong>
SOMMS:What if God has been trying to get in touch with you but your attitude towards God disallows it?

YOU:Then he's still an embarrassment as a deity.
</strong>[/QUOTE]
Why? Because you refuse to listen?


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas ]</p>

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Biff,
Bingo. You got it.

Now consider the case in which 'the one who reveals' only does so for people who are truly open to having a relationship.


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

wdog,
Simple, because it might be important to him whether or not you seek a relationship with him uncoerced.

I agree, however I am not making this claim. If God exists...he certainly does care if we seek him or not. In fact that is what he cares most about.

An interesting perspective.

As I've mentioned before: If God exists...he has absolutely no interest in being regarded as an 'objective' fact by man.

What he does wish is to have a personal relationship with you. As such your evidence of this relationship will ultimately be subjective...it will be very personal.

And in truth, this is all it need be.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Biff the unclean

Bingo? Ahh...the Roman Catholic God.

If you have a God that reveals Himself to those who are open for a relationship then you have a God who revealed Himself to all of we devout Christians who sought Him with our whole hearts and souls for years and years.

Since the majority of we Atheists are these former devout Christians we can attest to the fact that there is no revelation to be had ourside of imagination and fantasy.