Douglas J. Bender

Glory,

I wasn't comparing sex without marriage to suicide, let alone "with a straight face". I was making the point that maybe (or probably?) there are actually people who think cyanide would make a good cocktail - their thinking this does not make it so. Likewise for those who think that sex without marriage is harmless and not immoral.

Expect you to trust, or know that you should trust? In the case of the former, yours; the latter, mine.

Strange...I don't see how mine differ in any way in this regard than anyone else's. What's your point?

Resoundly rejected, yes; resoundly refuted, by no means. Besides, at least my "notions of right and wrong" are not based on subjective feelings and opinions, but on something that at least potentially could be a universally objective guideline.

That is, or your own which are based on your own subjective experiences and personal opinions about what is right and wrong. Or, to use your own words, "Yours, which is based entirely on your notions of right and wrong".

If every time I share my views on some matter, and those views happen to correspond to the Bible's teachings, and happen to contradict yours and those of most here, does that mean I am "preaching"? If so, then so be it.

Actually, my fleshly nature likes the idea of prostitution (though I've never, and would never, make use of a prostitute) - sexual gratification without the messiness and inconvenience of a life-long commitment. A little nookie for a little money, and be done with it. Sounds tempting, doesn't it?

I hope so, after all the effort I went to to carefully and thoughtfully explain my views.

Depends on if I've convinced everyone else here to change their views about prostitution, and to be convinced that it's wrong.

Not particularly, though I will if I must.

What's that got to do with whether sex without marriage (including, of course, prostitution) is immoral or not?

Don't misrepresent me or what I've said, please. The issue of this thread has essentially been whether prostitution is okee-dokee, not what to do about "society's" quandaries.

Where did I say that the sanctity of sex is "obvious to all"? In any case, what's "popularity" got to do with right and wrong? Your argument is almost equivalent to saying that if something is doing "huge business", it must be "right" (moral). Perhaps you could share your thoughts on why gambling does "such huge business"? Or how about slavery in the United States in the pre-Civil War era? Profit and volume of sales does not make right - I'm surprised you'd even think to use such an argument.



In Christ,

Douglas

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Douglas J. Bender ]</p>

Douglas J. Bender

excreationist,

No. Besides, God can perform miracles (ala Abraham and Sarah) in such cases for those who have the right "equipment". But not in the case of homosexuals or lesbians. I don't know about "hermaphrodites" - their's is a case I haven't given much thought to, and I don't know much about their predicament, actually.

In Christ,

Douglas

Douglas J. Bender

himynameisPWN,

Personally, I think a prostitute would be much more fun than mere masturbation, so in that sense they are not "equal". But in the sense you mean, and think I mean, they are "equal" in that the "initiator"/client is not seeking to share how much he or she loves the other person, but to gratify him or herself. There is no emotional/spiritual give and take in either case.

If those relations take place publicly, or if you advertise your services publicly to yourself.

Let's see...I'm pretty sure I'm not currently "under the Influence", so: I'm telling, you, PWN, that prostitution is immoral.


In Christ,

Douglas

Jagged

You no make no sense, hombre...

Besides making us go to hell, how will it harm us? Have you read <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000327" target="_blank">this thread</a> on premarital sex? Almost everybody here thot it had been a (very) good thing in their life. And what's this ideal you speak of? Please describe your criteria for ideal sex. Again, why will less-than-ideal sex "harm those involved"? I am not aware of a huge influx of fornicating heathens in therapy over "less-than-ideal sex." As long as I consent to it and it's safe, I highly doubt it will harm me. I think I'll go test my theory...

Douglas J. Bender

Jagged Little Pill,


I do SO make sense. In fact, I make so much sense I've been thinking of cutting back. And, I think that for the unmarried here, a good motto would be, "Make sense, not love".

That's like saying, "As long as I consent to it and it won't harm me, I highly doubt it will harm me". "Harm" isn't limited to sexually transmitted diseases, nor even strictly to physical ailments or injuries, you know. There is the "psychic" (as in "psychological"/spiritual, as in relationship and image and self-growth) and emotional damage that results from placing a lesser value on physical intimacy.


In Christ,

Douglas

avalanche:ix

coming from the netherlands, probably the most known place to have legalized prostitution, i can explain the reasons we have for legalizing it:


1. The individual freedom of choice for each person, to lead their lives as they wish. wether they want to do drugs, drink themselves silly, kill themselves, or be transsexual prostitutes who give out free enema's. live and let live. if i'm not doing harm to you, then who the hell are you to tell me how to lead my life?

2. It's not called the oldest profession in the world for nothing. it's here to stay, wether you like it or not. don't you think it's better to come out and admit it's existence to ourselves than pretend it doesn't happen?

3. increasing working conditions for the girls (and men, yes). let's face it, many of them are drug addicts. We can't force them off of the drugs, but we can try to make sure they have all the help they need. for example, in most cities here, in the prostitution designated zones, there are special government funded and run places where prostitutes can

A) get clean needles
B) get medical help when needed
C) get security to help them out if they get a bad client.

here, prostitution is a perfectly normal and acceptable profession, they have to pay income tax like everyone else. and believe it or not, but most do not do it out of a need (those that do get intensive social help), and very few are forced to (such as slavery from eastern europe, police crack down on that stuff hard). most of them simply like the large amounts of money the business makes, and ofcourse the sex. nothing wrong with that.

live and let live.

Jagged

Man, you got to LISTEN to the stuff that come out yo' mouth... Yes, as long as it won't harm me, I doubt it will harm me. What is the flaw in that terrible logic?

Please enlighten us with some facts about the psychic damage done by premarital sex.

[edited to add: actually, we might want to move over to the premarital sex discussion since this does not directly relate to prostitution]

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Jagged Little Pill ]</p>

ELECTROGOD

And Christians should know that well as they mind-fuck generation after generation of little kids (and adults, and seniors). Again I say, what a wonderful view you have of yourself and others as sinners who as sinners deserve to spend "eternity" in the worst imaginable fantasy anyone might imagine unless they accept your personal fairytale that someone else created and makes not one bit of sense.
Yea, I'm going to accept your version of sexual practices! You know it all because other people have already made your decisions for you, right on!

I am amused that you think that the bible has not been refuted in this forum, maybe you have not been here all that long.
That's good, teach your children to not use feelings and opinions to make decisions with, I'll bet they turn out real well.

Now why do you suppose your "fleshy nature" likes the idea of prostitution (I think that you are actually refering to sex period). Is it because "god" thought it a good idea to let evil constantly tempt you so you have a good chance at a trip to hell? Or is it because our bodies are designed that way despite the contrived ceremonies and pieces of paper we use to justify having sex to our religious neighbors? Did "god" make a boo boo when he made us and then left us that way? I guess he must have...or maybe "god" is a complete idiot!
I actually don't find nokie for money as a "temptation". Sex is a short act and the prices commanded for it are much too high to make any sense of it as I do not have a money tree in my back yard. There are men of god who are willing to pay the prices for sex but that's another story. I suppose that a good option for getting it for free would be to do as lots of people do and just get married. But that doesn't always work out either does it? Lots of married folks out there visiting prostitutes or just being unhappy due to an over-abundence of "love" and committment and a real lack of sex.

According to the religious, prostitution (and even sex in general) is a big part of "society's" quandaries. Hell, we are all sinners if we do it, right? Religious leaders from the Pope to Falwell say that sex without the specific intent to make a baby is a sin. If you can't believe them then who can you believe? They talk to "god" afterall.

What, "god" can perform miracles? If you have proof of that you could be a millionaire! (An unverified story from an old book doesn't count as proof though).
The right equipment is the thing but if you don't know anything about natural hermaphrodites then you don't really know enough about the issue of sexuallity and beliefs to be here presenting your hard and fast case. I suspect that most religious people don't know about "god's mistakes", they don't fit into neat little box of rules you have sealed yourself into.

Oh, but you are! You have been telling us through out this whole thread. How could you not be under the influence of your beliefs? You haven't set aside you beliefs for awhile so you can talk to us have you? Tell us again that your beliefs don't enter into your beliefs about this subject.
Prostitution is not immoral but you have accepted (or were just born into) a belief system that claims it is immoral in order to control the sexual practices of it's adherents. The influence of your religion has created and exacerbated many of the "ills" associated with practice of prostitution in a social setting where it is considered illegal.
But what is life without some ills? Utopia/fantasy?

But no one else sees your sense? I think that you are trying to make sense but are only making scents. Take the previous quote for example.
And that motto also would be for any unmarried children here as well? (there are some you know). I think "Make sense, not non-sense" would be better. Or "Make sense and love". I think that you may be assuming that people who use logic and reason are unable to love. If so then that would be incorrect.

Glory

Yeah, well you made that point by comparing the idea that thinking sex without marraige is okay is akin to thinking that cyanide is a nice cocktail. The implication is clear and I think you know it.



You are sounding a bit like the Flat Earth Society here.



You haven't shared your views. You have parroted what church leaders have told you and what you read in a book. Your entire argument boils down to "The Bible says that God said it is wrong."



Actually, its a little nookie for a lot of money as far as I am concerned. What does it matter if I am tempted by it? I am tempted by chocolate cake and champagne and Disneyana. No one seems to have a problem with these temptations. Eating chocolate cake before I was married did not in any way devalue it in my eyes. Nor did the fact that I paid for it on several occasions. I have even been known to sell it. What is so special about sex?



You told us we were all sinners. I can do with out that kind of thoughtfulness.



Has moral behaviour nothing to do with the good of society? Behaviour which is damaging to society certainly seems, to me to be, immoral. I believe that the current laws are doing more harm than good. Hence, I think this thread has room for a discussion about immoralities connected to the prevailing attitude about prostitution.



If it isn't obvious than why should any of us ignore what our bodies tell us in favour of Christian doctrine? How would any one ever become a Christian if its correctness were not apparent to its adherents? The obviousness of the Christian truth is one of the more common observations Christians make.

The prevailing religion in this country condemns this popular practice. Clearly, a large percentage of the people paying for sex are Christians? How can you expect nonbelievers to change their attitudes and behaviours when they are confronted by Christian hypocrisy at every turn?

Slavery is a prime example of a prevailing attitude that needed to change. At that time the church failed to condmen this abhorrent practice. Instead they reasoned that slavery brought Jesus to the savages and that a lifetime of servitude was a fair price for them to pay for salvation.

As for gambling, it is also not immoral. It can be dangerous for some but there is nothing inherently immoral about it. If there were playing the stock market, and church bingo, and that Job incident would also be immoral.

Glory

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

MadMordigan

It seem uncontroversial that sex WITH love is the best. This isn't whats at issue. Having experienced both, I can say with confidence that sex without love is one hell of a lot better than love without sex.