Keith Russell

Souljah:

Whether we know the future or not, whether we feel that we're freely choosing or not, if the future is known, our choices are not free.

The driver may not see the road beyond her headlights, but the road only goes the way it goes.

Keith.

K

s0uljah:

You said that evil is necessary for free will. Does that mean we shouldn't try to wipe out diseases and suffering since they are necessary evils placed here by God Himself? If we can eliminate a disease without eliminating free will, why didn't God get rid of that disease Himself?

As others have pointed out in numerous places, God's foreknowledge doesn't mean predestination UNLESS God also created the universe knowing full well exactly how events in that universe would transpire. With that kind of God (which is how Christians generally describe Him), the being with foreknowledge is no longer just an observer. He actively chose to create the universe with every choice of every individual known before He created them. That is predestination pure and simple.

xeren

I disagree. The fact that god knows the future does not mean that we aren't making free choices. He just knows what we are "freely" going to choose from the beginning to the end of time.

The part that gets me, as I said above, is that if he knows that a person is going to freely choose to sin, and not make it into heaven because of that, then he created a person that he knew had no possibility of going to heaven. That's not benevolent, that's just downright evil.

s0uljah

Hi Keith!

Well, I think of it this way. God, being outside of time, can see everything that happens throughout the entire "timeline" in one instant. He can see this from His perspective, and time is relative to Him.

s0uljah

That gets me to...or rather, it used to.

No matter what, we still choose and God desires everyone to choose to be with Him.

s0uljah

Hi K-

We can try all we want, but we won't wipe out all diseases. But even if we do, a great deal of suffering is caused by us, when we choose to sin.

K

s0uljah:

My question is about wiping out a single disease. If we do that, we have reduced the world by one evil that causes suffering. Either getting rid of that disease has reduced our free will, or that disease was unnecessary to begin with. If it has reduced our free will, how has it done this? And shouldn't we avoid eliminating diseases if we desire our free will? If it was unnecessary, why did God introduce this unnecessary evil into the world? That isn't very benevolent.

xeren

You didn't actually come to terms with my statement. I'm saying god(if he existed) is creating people that HE KNOWS will be sent to to hell.

So if he "desires everyone to choose to be with Him" then he has a very bad way of going about it, because he's making it impossible for some people.

s0uljah, you haven't given alternate answers to anyone here with tough questions, you're just spewing "god is love" type nonsense that doesn't get us anywhere because you haven't backed up any of your claims with reasons any of us should believe the things you say.

Laera

Are you just stating this as fact or do you have something to back it up?

You haven't addressed why God would make a person he knew already would never live up to his supposed "hopes" for him/her. How is creating someone in the full knowledge of his/her ending up in hell NOT the epitome of evil?

NeoDeltaI

Hey, s0uljah. I'd just like to point out that the statement 'God desires blank' will most definetly give you some unwanted responses (flames).

The argument is that you don't personally know God, therefore its very possible anything you've "heard" about it isn't based on facts. If you have reason to believe God wants a certain thing because it says in the Bible, you need to prove:
a) The Bible is originally from God
b) The information in the Bible is accurate
Both of these things have not been proven beyond a doubt, so you have no basis to say what God personally wants. Likewise, saying "I feel that God desires blank" will need to be backed up with facts to be believed, which is your goal.

Whether true or not, the view that God desires us to "choose" it says nothing about whether or not there is a God, and also doesn't give any reason why we should "choose" said God in the first place. Plus, most importantly, it doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand. Xeren said: "if he knows that a person is going to freely choose to sin, and not make it into heaven because of that, then he created a person that he knew had no possibility of going to heaven." Since you said it used to get to you, you must have found a reasonable answer to Xeren's dilemma. Please share it with us, because if you haven't found an answer, that would give you just cause to re-evaluate your religious stance.

Just a constructive criticism of your reply, and I hope you take it only as such.