curbyIII

A fundamental part of Christianity is the existence of Heaven. Heaven is a place/state of being that is really really good (possibly infinitely good). Anywho, how good Heaven is, is irrelevant. All that matters is that Heaven is better than our mortal existence (if it were not better, then there would be no point in not sinning). Let's assume that Heaven is logically possible and God is omnipotent and completely good. If God is as he was described above, then he would strive to eliminate evil as best he can. Any universe which he creates should be as good as it logically can be. But Heaven is a better place than this universe. So we have a contradiction. God should have created Heaven rather than this imperfect, crappy universe.

Note that God knows in advance which people will go to Heaven and which will go to Hell (or cease to exist or whatever) so our lives can't be some kind of test. There is no point to a test if you know the results beforehand.

If anyone wants to see the argument written out formally I would be glad to oblige.

Lord Asriel

I expect the theist response to this arguement is to call on the "God's Unknowable Plan" defense. But a couple of points from your post.
There is no reason to suppose that Heaven is not part of this universe. It may be extra-dimensional, for instance, and thus beyond our perception.

It may be that this terrestrial life is a necessary stage that we have to pass through before gaining entry to heaven, just as an oak must come from an acorn.

A more formal description of your argument may tidy up these loopholes, but I do not see anyone questioning their faith on the basis of it.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Lord Asriel ]</p>

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Well--God is also omnipotent. Therefore, there is NO NEED for a transistion. He can just poof you there.

bd-from-kg

Unaccustomed as I am to the role of Christian apologist, as a logician I feel compelled to point out that this argument is fallacious.

According to Christianity, God did not create this world instead of Heaven, but in addition to Heaven. So the thing that must be as good as it logically can be is not this world, but {this world + Heaven + whatever else He created}. The fact that one part of this whole is inferior to another part is irrelevant.

This is also fallacious. God does not know the future because he can predict it from the present, but because He sees the future. Thus, for example, He knows what you are going to do at noon tomorrow. But as of one minute after noon tomorrow, you will also know what you were going to do at noon tomorrow. It doesn't follow that what you are going to do is "preordained" or determined in advance; it only follows that you are going to do something specific at noon tomorrow.

Thus (it can be argued), having created the universe, God knows what everyone is going to do at every moment because He sees them doing it. But it doesn't follow that He would have known this if he had not created the universe.

As an analogy, suppose that a professor with precognition can "see" exactly what score each of his students will get on a test the second he decides definitely what the test questions will be. It doesn't follow that it is now pointless to give the test, because his giving the test (in the future) is a condition of his seeing (in the present) what the results will be.

Of course, this analogy can be ripped apart on the grounds that, since he is himself part of the space-time continuum whose future he is foreseeing, the professor's foreknowledge will change that very future, since everything is causally connected to everything else. In particular, there is nothing to stop him from deciding to change the test, thus invalidating his own supposed foreknowledge. But the example is intended only to illustrate the situation regarding God's foreknowledge, which is not subject to this objection.

I should also note that this argument has no logical relationship to the one that preceded it. That is, whether this world could be a "test" of some sort has no relationship to the question of whether the existence of a "better" world than this one (i.e., Heaven) proves that God cannot be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent. It's logically possible that God knew and intended everyone's ultimate fate in advance, but that nevertheless the universe He created (this world + Heaven + whatever else He created) is the best one that is logically possible.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: bd-from-kg ]</p>

xeren

I think curbyIII's point doesn't really hinge on heaven being in a different universe, his point is that god, being omnipotent, could have created a world just like heaven, where everone is completely happy and everything is perfect, and everyone does no wrong and everyone still gets to have freewill. Wouldn't an omnibenevolent god want that for all his children, to avoid their suffering as much as possible?

I agree that the second part of curbyIII's posting is a different argument, but that doesn't make it wrong.
Let me clarify on what i think(and i might be wrong) he was trying to say:
If god knows everything that's going to happen from the beginning of time to the end, then he obviously knows if a specific person is going to turn out to be a sinner and go to hell. So if he knew this before he created this person, and still decide to create this person, he is essentially creating someone just to be sent to hell. Not very benevolont if you ask me.

Thanks

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]</p>

Uni-Universe

Think about this....


What if God exists beyond time and space therefore everything that is supposed to happen has already happened beyond time and space. Our human minds are confined to time and space and we see time as a straight line. So evil only exists in the present and has existed in the past... maybe in some distant distant future the human race has perfected itself and perhaps there is a Utopia thousands of years into the future. And God "knew" this all along.

Nothing comes from nothing right? You have to go through a lot of grand scale crap in the form of war, terrorism, crime, etc to get to the next level and to learn right? Where would America be now without any of the negative stuff that has gone on in the past?

Our little human brains can not fathom what the grand scheme of things might be. It is so complex that of course you do not see that there is even a purpose to anything at all.

As far as "heaven," this is a place of perfection... a spiritual place, a place of pure energy... if everything was perfect, then everything would have to be pure energy. Thus there would not be a place to learn and to expand. Everything would be static. So the spiritual (energy) side and the matter (physical/Earth) side serves a duel purpose.

Perhaps you should find other religious explainations for "heaven" or Nirvana or whatever the name might be. Christianity is not the end of all "spiritual/God/meaning" knowledge. Just because it is the most popular religion in the world doesn't make it the only one to look at when you are debating the existence of God... and other related issues.

Expand.... read everything you can get your hands on.

s0uljah

Hi curbyIII-

Just a couple of responses, from a Christian perspective.

Evil is an obstacle to accepting the Christian God, I admit.

We say that God is omnipotent, but this word is flawed. God can't make something that loves Him completely of its own free choice. In order to cultivate that free choice, evil must exist, for a variety of reasons.

I respectfully disagree. God's foreknowledge does not mean predestination. We choose every action that we take, at every moment in our lives. This world is indeed a test.

Peace!

abe smith

Proof-Schmoof = blahblahblah = words words words

Marz Blak

Most eloquent rebuttal.

Lord Asriel

Bible-Schmible = blahblahblah = words words words