Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 06-14-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rousseau_CHN
Today is father's day, in my part of the world. And the thing that bothers me about Father's day, Mother's day, Christmas and the likes is that it comes just once in a year. It bothers me that these occasions, instead of highlighting these values: respect for parents (Mother and Father's day) and Sharing (Christmas day), trivializes them except on that special day. I would be the laughingstock, should I give someone a gift on, say, January 14. It isn't even Christmas, you idiot.

Now, I believe that the whole problem of judegement day is that it happens just once: on the end of days. It just struck me that we should be judging ourselves every single day of our lives.

Well, judgement doesn't happen in one day. The Tribulation, or God's judgement on the Earth takes place for 7 years, and the judgement of our lives at the White throne doesn't even take place on Earth afaik. Time is meaningless by then.

winstonjen · 06-14-2003, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Key word in many of the statements in your "salvation not only by faith" is justified. We are judged at the throne of judgement, based on our works in life. Your entire life will be laid out before God and if you are saved, He will show you what you did good in order to spread the Kingdom of God on Earth, and what you did wrong. If you aren't saved - He will show you why you aren't - and that none of your supposed good works meet up to His standards. No one will have an excuse when they stand before God at judgement.

Works are definately important, but they can't save you. For example, Jesus says to enter life, keep the commandments. Whats the first commandment? Love God above all else. Thats kind of a requirement in order to have faith in God that he sent His Son down to die for your sins. If you didn't follow the commandments, why would you be asking for salvation anyway? Once you are saved, you will have a strong desire to obey Jesus, and follow His commandments - because He asks us to.

The meaning of faith without works is dead, is if you have no desire or goal to turn from your sin, and follow Jesus' teachings - where is your faith? How can someone who claims to have faith in Jesus, and claims to want to live a sinless life - go out and purposely do things Jesus commanded us not to do?

But...any sins commited before having faith are forgiven, therefore it's A-OK to be like Hitler or Stalin, beg forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven, while newborn babies who die during childbirth go to hell. Charming. And don't give me the 'age of accountability' line again, Magus. In another thread you said that 'disbelief counts as a sin towards god', and babies don't have that - nevermind the fact that they've never had the opportunity to decide - so off to hell with them. :boohoo:

Moral bankruptcy at its finest.

Mageth · 06-14-2003, 08:59 PM

Well, judgement doesn't happen in one day. The Tribulation, or God's judgement on the Earth takes place for 7 years, and the judgement of our lives at the White throne doesn't even take place on Earth afaik. Time is meaningless by then.

Are you referring to the book of Revelation? You talk like it's actually gonna happen. News flash, Magus; Revelation is not an account of future history, any more than Genesis is an account of past history. Revelation is 100% metaphorical, and probably metaphorical for events that had already happened or were happening at the time the writer recorded the words. If you want more info on that, post a question about it in the BC&H forum. Interpreting it as future history is wrong, harmful actually (it makes people live with the mindset that Armageddon is a comin', and may even encourage some of them to help bring it about!).

Magus55 · 06-14-2003, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
But...any sins commited before having faith are forgiven, therefore it's A-OK to be like Hitler or Stalin, beg forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven, while newborn babies who die during childbirth go to hell. Charming. And don't give me the 'age of accountability' line again, Magus. In another thread you said that 'disbelief counts as a sin towards god', and babies don't have that - nevermind the fact that they've never had the opportunity to decide - so off to hell with them. :boohoo:

Moral bankruptcy at its finest.

First of all, its rare for anyone capable of what Hitler or Stalin did to even have remorse for what they did. Stalin was atheist, and Hitler insulted and despised Judeo-Christianity.

And why do you say newborn babies who die go to hell? Are you making an assumption, or do you somehow know for a fact they do? God is just - newborn babies can't make the decision to accept or reject Christ - they don't have the moral capacity to understand good and evil. Babies who die go to Heaven with God. As much as you'd love to think so, God is not cruel or hateful. He loves children and values them greatly.

Yes disbelief is a sin, which doesn't apply to people who can't choose to believe or not believe. A 6 month old baby barely knows what IT is, let alone the Creator of the Universe - a baby can not believe or disbelieve - they don't have the capacity - therefore they aren't responsible for sin until they are older.

Magus55 · 06-14-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Well, judgement doesn't happen in one day. The Tribulation, or God's judgement on the Earth takes place for 7 years, and the judgement of our lives at the White throne doesn't even take place on Earth afaik. Time is meaningless by then.

Are you referring to the book of Revelation? You talk like it's actually gonna happen. News flash, Magus; Revelation is not an account of future history, any more than Genesis is an account of past history. Revelation is 100% metaphorical, and probably metaphorical for events that had already happened or were happening at the time the writer recorded the words. If you want more info on that, post a question about it in the BC&H forum. Interpreting it as future history is wrong, harmful actually (it makes people live with the mindset that Armageddon is a comin', and may even encourage some of them to help bring it about!).

Care to explain how you came to the conclusion that Revelation isn't future history? Is alot of it metaphorical? Yes. Are the events and purpose for those metaphors real, yes. Its a combination of metaphoric and historical prophecy.

Mageth, you can stop trying to convince me the Bible is all fake, and God isn't real. I don't care whether you think so - you will never convince me it is, just like I will never convince you that God is real.

winstonjen · 06-14-2003, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55

And why do you say newborn babies who die go to hell? Are you making an assumption, or do you somehow know for a fact they do? God is just - newborn babies can't make the decision to accept or reject Christ - they don't have the moral capacity to understand good and evil. Babies who die go to Heaven with God. As much as you'd love to think so, God is not cruel or hateful. He loves children and values them greatly.

Because according to your beliefs, disbelief is a sin, as you later describe -

Quote:

Yes disbelief is a sin, which doesn't apply to people who can't choose to believe or not believe. A 6 month old baby barely knows what IT is, let alone the Creator of the Universe - a baby can not believe or disbelieve - they don't have the capacity - therefore they aren't responsible for sin until they are older.

Still, babies lack belief, which means that according to your religion, they go to hell.

Quote:

As much as you'd love to think so, God is not cruel or hateful. He loves children and values them greatly.

From your description of him, he doesn't care about anything except getting worship. He flooded the world because people were being 'sinful', and yet there was no evidence (even in the bible) that he had told people what he wanted to do back then, so HOW were they supposed to know what he wanted?!?!

wade-w · 06-14-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Christianity is the only one where God does all the work to save humanity, the only thing we need to do is believe.

And you think that is a good thing? I'd say that is a strike against your religion, not a plus.

Queen of Swords · 06-14-2003, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
And why do you say newborn babies who die go to hell? Are you making an assumption, or do you somehow know for a fact they do?

Why do you say that newborn babies who die go to heaven? Are you making an assumption, or do you somehow know for a fact that they do? Or perhaps you have a bible verse that says, "Newborn babies which die go to heaven"?

As much as you'd love to think so, God is not cruel or hateful. He loves children and values them greatly.

This must be why he slaughtered the Egyptian first-born, including children, why he murdered David's son and why he ordered the Israelites to butcher the children of other tribes. Such overwhelming love for the bloody corpses of children; God must greatly value their dying screams.

a baby can not believe or disbelieve - they don't have the capacity - therefore they aren't responsible for sin until they are older.

How much older? Three years? Five? Eight? Ten? Twelve? I doubt you can even answer this, much less provide biblical justification for your claim, but hey, hope springs eternal.

Magus55 · 06-14-2003, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
Because according to your beliefs, disbelief is a sin, as you later describe -

Still, babies lack belief, which means that according to your religion, they go to hell.

From your description of him, he doesn't care about anything except getting worship. He flooded the world because people were being 'sinful', and yet there was no evidence (even in the bible) that he had told people what he wanted to do back then, so HOW were they supposed to know what he wanted?!?!

Um, babies don't lack belief - they have no concept of belief. An unbeliever is one, who can understand morality and God, but choose to reject it - Atheist for example. A baby is not an atheist, or an agnostic because they can't make that choice.

And God was active in people's lives in Genesis. God told them what He wanted and what was wrong. I doubt many of them were unbelievers, they just plain didn't care.

Magus55 · 06-14-2003, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wade-w
And you think that is a good thing? I'd say that is a strike against your religion, not a plus.

How do you figure?

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06-14-2003, 08:59 PM	#23
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Well, judgement doesn't happen in one day. The Tribulation, or God's judgement on the Earth takes place for 7 years, and the judgement of our lives at the White throne doesn't even take place on Earth afaik. Time is meaningless by then. Are you referring to the book of Revelation? You talk like it's actually gonna happen. News flash, Magus; Revelation is not an account of future history, any more than Genesis is an account of past history. Revelation is 100% metaphorical, and probably metaphorical for events that had already happened or were happening at the time the writer recorded the words. If you want more info on that, post a question about it in the BC&H forum. Interpreting it as future history is wrong, harmful actually (it makes people live with the mindset that Armageddon is a comin', and may even encourage some of them to help bring it about!).

06-14-2003, 10:15 PM	#28
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Magus55 And why do you say newborn babies who die go to hell? Are you making an assumption, or do you somehow know for a fact they do? Why do you say that newborn babies who die go to heaven? Are you making an assumption, or do you somehow know for a fact that they do? Or perhaps you have a bible verse that says, "Newborn babies which die go to heaven"? As much as you'd love to think so, God is not cruel or hateful. He loves children and values them greatly. This must be why he slaughtered the Egyptian first-born, including children, why he murdered David's son and why he ordered the Israelites to butcher the children of other tribes. Such overwhelming love for the bloody corpses of children; God must greatly value their dying screams. a baby can not believe or disbelieve - they don't have the capacity - therefore they aren't responsible for sin until they are older. How much older? Three years? Five? Eight? Ten? Twelve? I doubt you can even answer this, much less provide biblical justification for your claim, but hey, hope springs eternal.

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