Jamie_L

Well, some atheists do and some theists don't.

There's all this talk about how atheists can't have a moral foundation, but theists can.

And yet, clearly, there are moral atheists and immoral theists.

How can theists spend so much energy arguing about how God is required for morality when clearly there seems to be no correlation?

Jamie

Oxymoron

Hurrah!

I'm a great believer in "enlightened self-interest" as a driving force for personal morality. If I act well towards others, in general they will act well towards me. If I perpetrate violence, I'm likely to be hit back, so in general I don't.

It's really very simple. I see no need for some external agent to tell me how to act and to enforce those behaviours with carrot and stick.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

In the Dark Eldar language, there is no such thing as cowardice--only enlightneed self-interest.


Enlightened self-interest works up to a point--I'm nice to you if you are nice to me, therefore we should be nice to each other. However, if I can nail you, without fear of retribution, then I bloody well will do so because it keeps you from doing the same to me later on--therefore keeping me one step ahead of the game.

The Golden Rule breaks down as well when suicidal and self-hateing people are thrown into the mix--i.e, a non-ideal world. We live in a non-ideal world.

ManM

Jamie_L,
Do you think there is a correlation between what one believes about the world and how they interact with the world? For example, if a group of people believe that God must be appeased with human blood, do you think that belief will have any impact on their behavior?

Jamie_L

Absolutely.

Jamie

ManM

Jamie_L,
A person who believes God (let's call him Moloch) is appeased by human sacrifice might still not perform that sacrifice (due to love, a weak stomach, or some other factor).

Here we have a situation where some people who believe in Moloch will perform sacrifices and some will not. Does that mean there is no correlation between belief in Moloch and sacrifice?

Jamie_L

Well, more information would be needed to anser that question. Over the whole population, if a majority of people who believe in Moloch perform sacrifices, then there would be a correlation.

I would go on, but I fear I'm starting to stray from my OP.

To clarify my original point: I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that religious people, on average, are more or less moral than people who are not religious. And yet, to my constanct amazement, religous people often attack atheism as being incompatible with a system of morality.

Yet if that were true, one would expect nearly all atheists to be running around killing and raping. But we don't see that.

Jamie

ManM

Jamie_L,

I was simply trying to demonstrate that people can act morally in spite of their beliefs. If a certain belief has horrid consequences for morality, I would expect many people would act rightly in spite of those beliefs. That does not mean we cannot discuss the impact a certain belief should have on morality. I could criticize the religion of Moloch even if many of its practitioners would not perform human sacrifices.

The existence of moral atheists proves that atheism is not a barrier to morality. It does not prove that atheism provides a sound foundation for morality. That subject is open to debate.

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: ManM ]</p>

Primal

It's funny how theists oft times try to have it both ways: they say their religion promotes morality, but then do immoral things under the excuse that "Jesus forgives". However if Jesus just forgives all immoral acts, there really is no check in place.

Pomp

ManM,

The existence of moral atheists proves that atheism is not a barrier to morality. It does not prove that atheism provides a sound foundation for morality. That subject is open to debate.

No it isn't. Atheism absolutely does not provide a sound basis or, indeed, any basis for morality. Atheism is a stance regarding how things are, not how things ought to be. It is not atheism's "job" to provide a foundation for morality, any more than it is asantaism's (the lack of a belief in the existence of Santa) "job" to provide such a foundation. For that matter, theism does not provide any such basis for exactly the same reason. There are of course, many systems of moral thought that are compatibel with atheism, asantaism, theism, or any combination of the three.