moiii

Throughout history there have been millions of men, women, and innocent children who have died in the wake of “holy” war. At the foundation of nearly every massive demonstration of evil is an unwavering “doctrinal truth” that facilitates and validates the evil that festers in the hearts of men. You I ask me how I can believe in a God who sits high and looks low, yet remains unseen and often times unheard.
We live in a finite world, a world of beginnings and ends. And it is at this barrier that Atheists, Christians, Agnostics alike find themselves speechless, without an adequate explanation to fully explain where we all came from and where it all began. There is, I believe, within each of us an innate desire, a longing of sorts for truth and understanding. And while we may travel in different directions, I must believe we are ultimately in search of the same thing. As with every ideology there is a point at which one must believe, even though certain foundational issues cannot be resolved.

I believe in God. I believe he created the universe and everything in it. How else could everything have been placed so perfectly?Take the human body for instance. As ridiculous as some suppose it is to believe in God, I ascertain that is it even more ridiculous to assume that it all just happened. Yes, I am a Christian. But unlike many “religious” people, I don’t believe it is my role to judge anyone else. I don’t have all of the answers-no one does. All I can offer anyone is the hope I have through Christ Jesus. Yet, I am disturbed when those who claim there is no God because there is no “proof” of his existence. Can anyone offer valid proof that God does not exist?

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: moiii ]</p>

HallaK9

Moi vaan,

This has been said countless times on these boards, but in case you haven't heard: The negative doesn't have to be proven. It goes like this:

It is not my job to prove to you that there is no God. If you want me to believe that such a being exists, it is your job to present evidence in support of your position. This rule applies for all claims, not just those concerning the existence of deities or such.

Have a great one,

Antti

ps. Your handle means 'hello' in Finnish

Wyrdsmyth

Hi moiii, welcome to the board.

What makes you say that everything is placed so "perfectly"? Or that things are "placed" by some agency at all?

How about this: In lieu of evidence for a god or some kind of creator or guiding force, we assume "we don't know exactly" the process that has led to the human body being the way it is. Is that ridiculous?

In any case, I wouldn't call our human bodies perfect. And some people are born deformed, or with horrible genetic diseases, or with some inherent flaws. Is this evidence of a perfect, benevolent designer? If there really is some omnipotent, omnibenevolent designer who is guiding our development from embryo to foetus and so on, then what sense does it make that some people are born without arms or digits, or born blind, or retarded?

Can anyone offer valid proof that leprechauns don't exist? How about unicorns? What would constitute valid proof in the non-existence of fairy tales? If we can't somehow "provide proof" that these things don't exist, are we to assume that they do? Think about it, the default position for these things is not that they do exist, if we can't "prove" that they don't.

Draygomb

Yes.

In order for god to be the first cause god must exist outside of time and without time god must exists in an unchangeable state such that nothing could ever change god. Even if we ignore the fact that god wouldn't be able to think because his thoughts couldn't change, we would still have to wonder how god could know he had created anything.

If god "knows" the universe exists then aside from being wrong at the time of creation he would have no reason to try to create it.

If god "knows" the universe doesn't exist then aside from being wrong after creation he would be completely unaware of his success. Would you call a rock "God" just because it produced the universe?

moiii

HallK9

I must disagree. If you want me to believe that such a being does not exist, it is your job to present evidence to support your position.It is not my job to prove to you that there is God. I don't think this topis has been thouroughly discussed.

moiii

Wyrdsmyth

I'm not talking about unicorns, I'm talking about God. Can you or can't you provide me with valid evidence that he does not exist?

KnightWhoSaysNi

Greetings!

Well, we do have Big Bang cosmology (evidence that that space and time began from a quantum singularity). Whether that was from a god, a quantum vacuum fluctuation, or no cause at all, or whatever, is unknown. A "Noble prize" question, you'd might say. It could be an eternal uncaused universe. We don't know exactly what happened, and I doubt theologians know either.

This is the standard argument of design. The problem I have with this is why assume an intelligent agent? There is evidence that life today arose through billions of years of biological evolution, and no intelligent agent was necessary (if God exists, he apparently put the design process on "autopilot").

Unlike some people you may find here, I'm not a theist basher. From my experience, intelligent and rational people can easily come down on both sides of this issue of the existence of God.

I can speak for every atheist, but I have an "absence of belief" in a god, not the denial of the existence of god. I believe the burden of proof is on the theist, rather than the atheist.

Anyway, have fun on the forums Some here have an itchy trigger finger on their flame-throwers, but don't let it get to you!

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>

moiii

Draygomb

"In order for god to be the first cause god must exist outside of time"

This is an assumption which lacks valid support. Your are asserting this as fact when in actuality there is no factual basis.


"and without time god must exists in an unchangeable state"

This is an assumption which lacks valid support. Your are asserting this as fact when in actuality there is no factual basis.

I can not adequately respond or argue opinion.

Philosoft

If I may interject, you are quite bold to demand a logical proof of the non-existence of something that by most descriptions defies propositional logic. You might start with giving a definition of 'God' that actually refers to a being and not to that alleged being's actions. And to suppose that this topic hasn't been "thoroughly discussed" in this forum is laughable at best. You really ought to do your homework before you come bursting in here like some junkyard dog.

phlebas

moiii,

What you're not getting is that, to us, the existing evidence for unicorns is exactly the same as the existence of evidence for God.

Presumably, you don't believe in unicorns or leprechauns or whatever, yet you do believe in God. What makes you sure that the one exists but that the others do not?

And no one can provide you with solid proof that there is no supernatual, powerful being. We can,. however, point out the inconsistencies with certain definitions of that supernatural being.

If you're just going to show up and shout GOD EXISTS over and over, then could you just start posting in the Rants, Raves, and Preaching forum, to save the mods the trouble?