Ab_Normal

I went through this after giving birth to my daughter, and it was one of the things that made me realize I was an atheist. But I can understand how someone, like Jobar's brother, could tip the other way and become more theist.

Jamie_L

If every woman who gave birth and every child that was conceived and carried was born alive and healthy, then yeah, I might say childbirth is a miracle.

Having lived through the full-term stillbirth of a child (and the accompanying trauma in my wife), I'd have to say childbirth is not a miracle. It is a wildly dangerous endeavor involving risk and pain, ending in tragedy an unsettling amount of the time.

And every now and then I do lament the fact that some day my children will be dead and forgotten. These lovely, precious, amazing creatures that love me so much will be not more than subatomic particles when the universe grinds to its inevitible heat death, big crunch, or whatever.

God? Nope. Don't see him hinding in motherhood.

Jamie

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Some animals eat their young.

(And then, there was the Trojan mothers' admonition to "come back with your shield, or on it.")

'Nuff said!

Keith.

The Dionysian

Saying childbirth is a miracle is not saying that it's a violation of any physical laws. It's just an emotional thing (bringing a person into the world, whether that's good or not depends on your perspective).

"And every now and then I do lament the fact that some day my children will be dead and forgotten. These lovely, precious, amazing creatures that love me so much will be not more than subatomic particles when the universe grinds to its inevitible heat death, big crunch, or whatever."

You know I've fully accepted the fact that I'm going to be dead and gone someday and so will everyone I know and I do not lament that. I would only lament not taking full advantage of the time I have with them.

thebeave

When I was born, there were no toasters involved, but, mysteriously I did have a bent coathanger wrapped around my neck. Was that a miracle?

The term "miracle" is mis-used almost as much as the term "hero". In fact, I recall a recent survey where people were asked if miracles happened in their lives. Many replied yes, and then described the "miracle". Said "miracles" included childbirth, cures from cancer, close calls with death, etc. One guy noted that he needed a special power tool for trimming his hedge, and he asked his neighbor if he had one, and he did! To him that was a "miracle".

diana

Later this custom declined. So did Rome. (Robert Heinlein)

d

xstvn

Heh.
That really made me laugh


When a child is born with characteristics of its parents whether its in appearance or susceptibility to certain diseases...isn't that proof of the miracle of evolution?

Jobar

Hi Amie- my honest opinion is that my brother was forced to look at the hard questions of life and death by the birth of his first son, yes. And his answer was to retreat to the soothing superstitions he (and I also) was taught to believe as a child. I considered that a cop-out, frankly. Still do.

And because I love my nephews and neice, I want them to benefit from the difficult lessons I have learned, and thereby become stronger and better and braver than I. My experience has been that rejecting the ancient myths of Christianity makes life better- sharper, more poignant, more real. So yes, I am sad that they have been taught what is to me a barefaced lie. I am not *too* sad though, since the eldest is only 15; it may well be that when they start thinking seriously for themselves, they will come to me- and perhaps I will be able to show them the truths I see.

Shadowy Man

Toto:

I'm not a theological expert, but I was under the impression that original sin was a Christian, not Jewish, concept.

Oxymoron

I suppose that if anything was going to give Jo(e) Public that sense of the numinous then the creation of new human life ought to be it. I witnessed the ultrasound image of my daughter-to-be on Monday (20 weeks old) and it made me cry with joy. Me! Oxymoron, the second most cynical person I know!

Coming back to Earth, the whole reproduction thing proves diddly-squat. Far from being "miraculous", it's one of the most commonplace events on the planet, and in the past it has killed a huge number of women and children. If it's evidence of anything it's

(a) how far medical procedure has come,
(b) how resilient we are as a species despite dodgy biology, and
(c) how utterly impersonal and oblivious the world is to the individual.