Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AnDyKyNz · 01-02-2003, 09:49 AM

As a free-thinking Christian not devoted spiritually to any particular denomination (but physically and "chorally" devoted to a certain church)I would like to address the beleif of God.

I understand that many people on this forum don't beleive God, but don't worry, I'm not trying to convert you or anything. We beleive what we beleive, whether or not it's best for us. You can't force a Taoist to beleive that learning is the road to happiness, neither can you force a Tran_scendentalist to beleive that genetic farming is good.

In the thoughts of Socrates, anything we truly beleive exists does exist. In my opnion, and the basis my beleif in the existance of god is simply that I beleive that such a power as God exists.

There once was a book about a boy who had a brother. This brother had throughly convinced his younger sibling that a bomb was in the child's brain, and if he ever uttered a word, it would go off. Of course, this wasn't true, but he beleived it so much, that when he finally spoke a word, he went into spasms and became unconcious.

On a lighter note, research has shown that people who have a cold who are given advil have near the same recovery rate as those who are given a suger pill but told they are given advil. Beleif can not only form what we think exists, but even alter our physical state.

I join this message board not to preach, but because my close friend asked me to. I haven't exactly led a happy life, and have had very troubled times. I come to discuss philosphy, which i do study a bit, to find moral support, and find friends that perhaps share my same beleifs, if not religion.

As a free-thinking Christian, I do get along with many people, but not everyone agrees to get along with me. I disagree with some people at church, for I certainly don't completely follow the holy bible, which I find untrustworthy at times in my quest for whatever it is I'm living for. I disagree with passages in the holy book that are so blunt, that the translations from the original text can't have possibly been misinterpeted. However, I still beleive, because it's what I truly beleive in my heart.

Thank you for your time and patience for whoever reads this.

-Andrew L. Lee

Philosoft · 01-02-2003, 10:06 AM

Welcome, um, Andy from Kentucky and New Zealand? We tend to appreciate liberal theists around here.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnDyKyNz

On a lighter note, research has shown that people who have a cold who are given advil have near the same recovery rate as those who are given a suger pill but told they are given advil.

The good-old placebo effect.

Quote:

Beleif can not only form what we think exists, but even alter our physical state.

You've made an invalid (and backwards) comparison here. The latter you can show experimentally, the former you cannot. If you start with what you know, namely that the placebo effect is factual, it is clear the extrapolation to belief=reality is unwarranted.

Uni-Universe · 01-02-2003, 10:08 AM

Hello

I don't really have much to write in reply to what you have written. The only thing I want to write at this time is that I couldn't seem to look past that you misspelled the words "Believe" and "Belief."

Carry on.....

Mageth · 01-02-2003, 10:17 AM

In the thoughts of Socrates, anything we truly beleive exists does exist. In my opnion, and the basis my beleif in the existance of god is simply that I beleive that such a power as God exists.

Does this imply that there are a multitude of gods that actually exist (after all, there are many different conceptions of god that someone "truly believes" exists)? How about UFOs? Bigfoot? Chupacabra? Santa Claus? Ghosts? Surely they must all truly exist, as there are some that truly believe in them?

(BTW, I like to call this "Tinkerbell belief." If you just believe in Tinkerbell, she'll get all better!)

On a lighter note, research has shown that people who have a cold who are given advil have near the same recovery rate as those who are given a suger pill but told they are given advil.

Well, they should have close to the same recovery rate; neither ibuprofen nor sugar pills have any curative effect on the common cold.

Advil might make you feel a little better; is that what the research you're referring to actually deals with?

AnDyKyNz · 01-02-2003, 12:24 PM

Thanks for those who replied
As for spelling, English is very nearly my 3rd language, as I Mandarin Chinese is my first language and Taiwanese was my 2nd for awhile, now I don't speak it as well due to the fact i don't use it.
When i stated that it can alter our physical state, I suppose I used the wrong wording. Rather, belief (thanks for the spelling correction) seems to enhance recovery from disease. That is what I meant, I tend to generalize at times. Sort of like you can say a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square. Thanks for pointing this out too.
As Far as all religions go, they all may as well worship the same God, and not know it. What pagans beleive to be multiple gods may be just one God performing different tasks.
I believe that this one God exists, and Jesus is his son. However, I did not state this as a proof. I quoted Socrates simply as a way to accentuate what I had said earlier about beliefs. People will believe what they believe, but this doesn't make it true.
I'm not going to lie and say that belief means fact. However, beliefs has always been the first step to fact. When Einstein made up something called "Dark Matter" to explain a loophole in one of his theories, he wasn't far from the truth. Recent (recent meaning the last few years) reseach have taken steps foward in proving that Dark Matter exists in this universe. I believe in God because I believe in God, and that he will someday show his prescence to the whole world. Until that day, I will put my faith where my heart is.

-Andrew L Lee

xeren · 01-02-2003, 06:33 PM

Correct me if i am wrong, but i think einstein "believed" in dark matter because his calculations showed that there had to be much more mass in the universe than we were observing.

Your belief in god is not the same thing. Show me some calculations that show that there must be a god in the universe, and your belief will be on the same footing as Einstein's belief.

Biff the unclean · 01-02-2003, 06:48 PM

I believe in God because I believe in God...

Einstein did go through a period, xeren, where he did believe things just because he believed them. His Mom called that period his "Terrible Twos."

AnDyKyNz · 01-02-2003, 07:03 PM

An interesting point about xeren's comment, the belief of Dark Matter didn't come out through Einstein's calculations, but rather, for the lack of them. He made it up to explain an unexplained phenomenom in some of his studies, I don't exactly remember what it was, but I do remember he never proved its existence, that he only made it up to explain something else.

-Andrew L Lee

Amie · 01-02-2003, 07:22 PM

Hi Andrew I just wanted to say I thought your OP was a very nice post.
Have a good one~
Amie

B. H. Manners · 01-02-2003, 08:05 PM

Welcome to the EoG Forum, Andrew Lee. Post as often as you want to concerning the existence of any god and ask as many questions as you want to as well. Don't worry about spelling mistakes---English is my only language and I still can't spell very well sometimes.

01-02-2003, 09:49 AM	#1
AnDyKyNz New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lafayette, LA USA Posts: 3	Fundamental of Beleif As a free-thinking Christian not devoted spiritually to any particular denomination (but physically and "chorally" devoted to a certain church)I would like to address the beleif of God. I understand that many people on this forum don't beleive God, but don't worry, I'm not trying to convert you or anything. We beleive what we beleive, whether or not it's best for us. You can't force a Taoist to beleive that learning is the road to happiness, neither can you force a Tran_scendentalist to beleive that genetic farming is good. In the thoughts of Socrates, anything we truly beleive exists does exist. In my opnion, and the basis my beleif in the existance of god is simply that I beleive that such a power as God exists. There once was a book about a boy who had a brother. This brother had throughly convinced his younger sibling that a bomb was in the child's brain, and if he ever uttered a word, it would go off. Of course, this wasn't true, but he beleived it so much, that when he finally spoke a word, he went into spasms and became unconcious. On a lighter note, research has shown that people who have a cold who are given advil have near the same recovery rate as those who are given a suger pill but told they are given advil. Beleif can not only form what we think exists, but even alter our physical state. I join this message board not to preach, but because my close friend asked me to. I haven't exactly led a happy life, and have had very troubled times. I come to discuss philosphy, which i do study a bit, to find moral support, and find friends that perhaps share my same beleifs, if not religion. As a free-thinking Christian, I do get along with many people, but not everyone agrees to get along with me. I disagree with some people at church, for I certainly don't completely follow the holy bible, which I find untrustworthy at times in my quest for whatever it is I'm living for. I disagree with passages in the holy book that are so blunt, that the translations from the original text can't have possibly been misinterpeted. However, I still beleive, because it's what I truly beleive in my heart. Thank you for your time and patience for whoever reads this. -Andrew L. Lee

01-02-2003, 12:24 PM	#5
AnDyKyNz New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lafayette, LA USA Posts: 3	Thanks for the feedback Thanks for those who replied As for spelling, English is very nearly my 3rd language, as I Mandarin Chinese is my first language and Taiwanese was my 2nd for awhile, now I don't speak it as well due to the fact i don't use it. When i stated that it can alter our physical state, I suppose I used the wrong wording. Rather, belief (thanks for the spelling correction) seems to enhance recovery from disease. That is what I meant, I tend to generalize at times. Sort of like you can say a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square. Thanks for pointing this out too. As Far as all religions go, they all may as well worship the same God, and not know it. What pagans beleive to be multiple gods may be just one God performing different tasks. I believe that this one God exists, and Jesus is his son. However, I did not state this as a proof. I quoted Socrates simply as a way to accentuate what I had said earlier about beliefs. People will believe what they believe, but this doesn't make it true. I'm not going to lie and say that belief means fact. However, beliefs has always been the first step to fact. When Einstein made up something called "Dark Matter" to explain a loophole in one of his theories, he wasn't far from the truth. Recent (recent meaning the last few years) reseach have taken steps foward in proving that Dark Matter exists in this universe. I believe in God because I believe in God, and that he will someday show his prescence to the whole world. Until that day, I will put my faith where my heart is. -Andrew L Lee

01-02-2003, 07:03 PM	#8
AnDyKyNz New Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lafayette, LA USA Posts: 3	einstein An interesting point about xeren's comment, the belief of Dark Matter didn't come out through Einstein's calculations, but rather, for the lack of them. He made it up to explain an unexplained phenomenom in some of his studies, I don't exactly remember what it was, but I do remember he never proved its existence, that he only made it up to explain something else. -Andrew L Lee

01-02-2003, 07:22 PM	#9
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	Re: Fundamental of Beleif Hi Andrew I just wanted to say I thought your OP was a very nice post. Have a good one~ Amie

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01-02-2003, 10:08 AM	#3
Uni-Universe Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth/USA Posts: 28	Hello I don't really have much to write in reply to what you have written. The only thing I want to write at this time is that I couldn't seem to look past that you misspelled the words "Believe" and "Belief." Carry on.....

01-02-2003, 10:17 AM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	In the thoughts of Socrates, anything we truly beleive exists does exist. In my opnion, and the basis my beleif in the existance of god is simply that I beleive that such a power as God exists. Does this imply that there are a multitude of gods that actually exist (after all, there are many different conceptions of god that someone "truly believes" exists)? How about UFOs? Bigfoot? Chupacabra? Santa Claus? Ghosts? Surely they must all truly exist, as there are some that truly believe in them? (BTW, I like to call this "Tinkerbell belief." If you just believe in Tinkerbell, she'll get all better!) On a lighter note, research has shown that people who have a cold who are given advil have near the same recovery rate as those who are given a suger pill but told they are given advil. Well, they should have close to the same recovery rate; neither ibuprofen nor sugar pills have any curative effect on the common cold. Advil might make you feel a little better; is that what the research you're referring to actually deals with?

01-02-2003, 06:33 PM	#6
xeren Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Place Posts: 285	Correct me if i am wrong, but i think einstein "believed" in dark matter because his calculations showed that there had to be much more mass in the universe than we were observing. Your belief in god is not the same thing. Show me some calculations that show that there must be a god in the universe, and your belief will be on the same footing as Einstein's belief.

01-02-2003, 06:48 PM	#7
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I believe in God because I believe in God... Einstein did go through a period, xeren, where he did believe things just because he believed them. His Mom called that period his "Terrible Twos."

01-02-2003, 08:05 PM	#10
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	Welcome to the EoG Forum, Andrew Lee. Post as often as you want to concerning the existence of any god and ask as many questions as you want to as well. Don't worry about spelling mistakes---English is my only language and I still can't spell very well sometimes.

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