vash_the_stampede

I find it interesting that so many people who consider themselves freethinkers and/or atheists line up to defend Islam. This is especially strange since many such people, at least in the states, have a lot of animosity towards fundie Christians.

The only reason I can think of is that Islam is still too new and weak here in the states to make itself felt as a political force. I think once there are a sufficient number of Muslims living here, people are going to wake up and realize that political Islam is like right-wing Christianity on steriods.

After 9/11 I spent a fair amount of time reading about and talking to various Muslims I knew or met afterwards. I learned some very interesting things doing this, many of which I found seriously disturbing. For instance, one guy told me that at his mosque, during the 2000 elections, they were PRAYING for Bush to win the election! Yes, the party of right-wing bible beaters is also the party of Islam (or at least the closest thing to it in America). When I asked why this was so, it's because (at least in this particular Muslim's opinion) Muslims support legislating morality and weakening church-state seperation. I wonder how Pat Robertson would feel about that!!

Jat

Of course you got it all wrong. We're not defending anything. We're saying that in reality they're basically all the same when it comes to how they think of and treat women.

The only reason why Christianity isn't as rough on women now is that it is a dying belief system and doesn't nearly have the power and control it once did. Most of its followers just pay lip service to many of its basic doctrines. Islam is a much younger belief system, around 600 or so years younger than Christianity, and it to will eventually start to die as well.

The current growth rate of Christianity is a stagnant 2.3% per year. Whereas Islam is an increasing 2.9% per year.

All such belief systems run in cycles. They are created, they grow and florish for awhile than they die.

vash_the_stampede

I completely agree with you. But just because they're basically the same doesn't mean we should go any easier on Islam.. If anything, we should be harder on it because it's younger and growing and therefore more dangerous.

It's ok to say that Christanity over the long term has been just as bad. But that shouldn't exclude secularists from leveling critisism against Islam. I certainly don't want to live in a country ruled by people who act like the Christians of the 1300's. (Nor do I want to live in a country run by today's fundies, but that's not the point I'm trying to make).

Kuu

I haven't been defending the abuse inflicted on women by some branches of Islam. The throwing of acid on a wife is horrendous, but then so is wife-burning, wife-bashing and raping wives.

I received some very bad abuse from my ex-husband including once when he held by head under water until I started to go limp. Then he took me out of the water until I revived and then he did it again. He did this 4 or 5 or 6 times and I really thought I was going to die.

Should I blame all Australian men for the abuse I received from my ex-husband? Of course not. Should all Islamic men take the blame for the abuse some Islamic men inflict on their wives? Of course not. There are many Islamic men that do not abuse their wives or daughters, there are Islamic men working to stop the abuse that women suffer in their country. There is many Muslim men who say that such abuse is not condoned by the Koran. There are countries, like Turkey, that have actively been working to improve the treatment of women.

hinduwoman

And my point was that all of it was not indefensible. Most women married as adults, they seem to have been given some measure of choice in marriage, women were not kept in such strict seclusion, most moved freely without coverings, there were even women worker's guilds (not prostitutes!), . All these disappeared when Islam came along with the notion that only a woman who was another man's property and was kept in the house is safe from rape.

Yes I see the problem that according to you the law means nothing.
I would say that while changing social mindset is very important, changes in law also says something. It says that there are sufficient people who are willing to acknowledge that there is something wrong and something must be done. Islamic states do not even accept there is something wrong! How then can they take the first step to doing something about it? The law has empowered women (and they misuse it too, which is another matter) to bring charges, and the guilty had been brought to justice and even if not legally they are marked. It is due to force of law that women in India have received opportunities and conditions have changed for the better.
Since in USA there is a great deal of domestic violence due to mindset, why don't you repeal the laws protecting women; after all nothing would change, right?

hinduwoman

Kuu, I agree that all muslim men are not evil or treat women horrendously.
The problem is that when they do (say talaq three times and wife is divorced) they can cite Islamic justification.

The real problem lies in the stupid belief of the koran being immutable and Hadis infallible guide to life. Unless they get rid of this hangup enough to reinterpret the books if not dump them, the problems are going to multiply.

vash_the_stampede

Excellent point. It is a fact that even in most fairly secular Muslim nations (even prewar Iraq, BTW) there are no laws against husbands beating their wives. At least in Western countries we care enough to at least have a law against it. Not only is there a law against it in the US, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would claim it's acceptable. I don't know about Australia, but in the US I know there can be serious criminal reprocussions for this kind of violence (sadly, many women don't report it either out of fear for themselves or because they don't want their husbands to get in trouble... Don't believe it? Try catching an episode of "COPS" on cable or satellite).

Do I think western culture and governments are perfect? No. Do I think Islamic/Arab culture and government give women a worse deal than our own? I find it hard to believe anyone could argue otherwise.

vash_the_stampede

I believe our only hope as a species is to give up our god images and primitive holy books, look at each other and realize we have many more similarities than differences, and face the future as brothers and sisters. We don't need gods to give our lives meaning. We don't need bronze age tribesmen who have been dead thousands of years to tell us what sort of people we should be, or what sort of laws we should have.

Kuu

^^^ And my husband said that I was his wife and I shiould do as I was told. Some Western men treat women as property too. Many men in the west think that beating women is acceptable, that is why so many women are beaten.

I have also mentioned that a social worker (a woman) put the blame on me being beaten onto me. She said that I was causing the stress in my husband's life that lead to him beating me. I also had police who didn't seem to want to get involve. The police knew I was being beaten, that I was terrified to leave, but it was easier for them to turn their backs. There might have been a law against him beating me but it wasn't enforced.

In 1982 my husband raped the day I came home from hospital after having my son. At time, just over 20 years ago, my husband could not have been charged with rape. Twenty years ago a men could not be charged with raping his wife.

Even today terrible things happen to aboriginal women in Austalia and the law here seem to accept them.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1126

I did post about the above case in the 'Moral Foundation and Principles' forum last year.

The case was at such

and from another report of the case states


Muslim men are not unique in mistreating their women. The thing that worries me is how many people criticise Islam for abuse when turning a blind eye to mistreatment within their own community, or in the case of the legal system in Australia is concerned (at least when it involves Abotiginal women) often condoning it.

Jat

Who has been easy on Islam here, except for Muslims? What some are trying to do is say that it is only Islam which teaches that women are lower forms of life. All we're saying is that is far from being true. All dominance based religions do this. We're not excusing Islam from anything.