Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ps418 · 11-09-2002, 06:21 AM

During the past week I've been rereading V.S. Ramachadran's book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688172172/qid=1036852990/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-9646192-9462452?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" target="_blank">Phantoms in the Brain.</a> Basically the book discuss the (sometimes quite strange) effects of brain injury on perception, cognition, memory, temperment and personality. This type of research raises all kinds of interesting questions about the soul, the relationship of the soul to the brain, and the relationship of the brain-state during life to the soul-state after death.

Here's just one of many examples that have came to mind. There is abundant evidence that the formation of new long-term epidodic memories is mediated by the hippocampus, and in general is causally dependent upon the brain. Ramachadran discusses one patient who had his entire hippocampus removed. The patient could remember all that happened before surgery, but could not retain any new memories. For instance, the doctor would place a pen under a pillow, in full view of the patient. A couple of minutes later, the doctor would ask where the pen was, and patient would have no idea. After a long conversation with the patient, the doctor would leave the room. When he came back an hour later, the patient would have no memory of the doctor. And so on. This person could laugh at the same jokes over and over, because he could not anticipate the punch line. The same phenomena have been demonstrated in rats.

Back when I was a True Believer, I always assumed that my soul/astral body/whatchamacallit would somehow retain memory of my embodied life in the afterlife, and even that new memories would be formed in the afterlief. If that is so, I wonder if this patient would display the same memory impairment in heaven? Would he somehow remember all things that happened to him post-surgery, despite his apparent inability all those years to form new long-term memories? Would his ability to form memories somehow be restored? I wondered the same things back when I worked with Alzheimer's patients. Would they remember the last years of their lives, when to all appearances they could not form any new memories, and indeed appeared to have forgotten just about everything they had learned earlier in life?

Any thoughts?

Some cool papers on episodic memories and the hippocampus:
<a href="http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~shastri/psfiles/ShastriTicsEM02.pdf" target="_blank">Episodic memory and cortico-hippocampal interactions, Lokendra Shastri, Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 6: 162-168. 2002. </a>PDF file

<a href="http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~shastri/psfiles/shastri_em.pdf" target="_blank">From Transient Patterns to Persistent Structures: A model of episodic memory formation via cortico-hippocampal interactions, Lokendra Shastri, Behavioral and Brain Sciences. In revision. </a> PDF file

Patrick

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]

ps418 · 11-09-2002, 06:39 AM

Also, I found some very, very interesting articles online by Rhawn Joseph discussing the effects of injuries to various brain systems on cognition, personality, and so on. The two that I found most interesting are:

<a href="http://www.brain-mind.com/FrontalLobe1.html" target="_blank">Joseph, R. (1999). Frontal lobe psychopathology: Mania, depression, aphasia, confabulation, catatonia, perseveration, obsessive compulsions, schizophrenia. Psychiatry, 62, 138-172.</a>

<a href="http://www.brain-mind.com/SplitBrainPatient.html" target="_blank">Joseph, R. (1988). Dual mental functioning in a split-brain patient. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 44, 770-779. </a>

Split-brain research is especially strange! Especially how the split-brain subjects left-hemispheres tend to confabulate explanations for the behavior of their right hemispheres. And then there is the <a href="http://www.canjneurolsci.org/27augtoc/alien.html" target="_blank">'alien hand syndrome,'</a> which suggests not only that the hemispheres can function independently, but that they can come into conflict with each other! For instance, following a callosotomy or perhaps a stroke in the corpus callosum, you may find your left hand has a tendency to reach out and smack people without 'your' permission. The right, consciously controlled hand may have to physically restrain the left hand, which is controlled by the nonverbal right hemisphere. Very strange indeed!

Emmanuel Goldstein · 11-09-2002, 10:00 AM

Perhaps he could tattoo important bits of information on his body to help him remember. Also a polaroid camera.

crocodile deathroll · 11-09-2002, 03:14 PM

You will ultimately forget that you were ever born at all in the first place, which begs the question why was is possible for one to be born at all in the first place?
How did the self get started?

I am sure the brian is not built on episodic memory but a preexising genetic memory which is why we all have our hippocampuses more or less located in the same positions within our brains.

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

Living Dead Chipmunk · 11-09-2002, 09:13 PM

How does that patient get from room to room? How does he remember where he's going once he sets off? Poor guy must be more of an invalid than a quadraplegic.

tronvillain · 11-09-2002, 10:27 PM

From the description, he still had short term memory, so it is not as bad as all that.

Now, crocodile deathtroll:

Quote:

You will ultimately forget that you were ever born at all in the first place, which begs the question why was is possible for one to be born at all in the first place? How did the self get started?

It is not apparent that anyone ever remembers being born, so I assume you are simply referring to remembering the fact that one was born. Does ultimately forgetting that fact (by death or impairment of brain function) beg the question "Why was it possible for one to be born at all in the first place?" It does not appear to.

Quote:

I am sure the brian is not built on episodic memory but a preexising genetic memory which is why we all have our hippocampuses more or less located in the same positions within our brains.

Well, obviously the brain is a product of genetic information (in combination with environmental factors), but episodic memory is a key element of what develops.

crocodile deathroll · 11-09-2002, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
From the description, he still had short term memory, so it is not as bad as all that.

Now, crocodile deathtroll:
It is not apparent that anyone ever remembers being born, so I assume you are simply referring to remembering the fact that one was born. Does ultimately forgetting that fact (by death or impairment of brain function) beg the question "Why was it possible for one to be born at all in the first place?" It does not appear to.

quote:

.

To be more precise, people generally struggle to remember event before the age of 2.

And when one considers just how unlikely you are to exist as the person you are then consider that a man has enough sperm in each ejaculation to impregnate every woman in the United States twice over. That is 300 million people that could of been born but weren't and never will be.

But since you are reading this and I posted then there must be something wrong with that logic

Jackalope · 11-10-2002, 02:21 AM

Regarding alien hand syndrome:
There's a lesser phenomenon seen in stroke patients called "neglected limb." The patient can often use the affected limb _if they can see it_. But if the affected limb is hidden from sight (behind a drape or in a bag), suddenly the patient cannot use it. One woman I talked to said she can't fasten her bra behind her back, because the minute she's not looking at her hand, it stops working correctly. She also reports that if she reaches in a bag to grab something, she most often can't identify the object by touch. She can reach in her purse and feel, "object, another object, another one" but can't identify them. If she looks in the bag, she immediately recognizes "pen, wallet, keys." This is different from the problems caused by spinal or peripheral nerve damage, where the affected limb simply does not work correctly, whether or not the patient is looking.

crocodile deathroll · 11-10-2002, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jackalope:
Regarding alien hand syndrome:
There's a lesser phenomenon seen in stroke patients called "neglected limb." The patient can often use the affected limb _if they can see it_. But if the affected limb is hidden from sight (behind a drape or in a bag), suddenly the patient cannot use it. One woman I talked to said she can't fasten her bra behind her back, because the minute she's not looking at her hand, it stops working correctly. She also reports that if she reaches in a bag to grab something, she most often can't identify the object by touch. She can reach in her purse and feel, "object, another object, another one" but can't identify them. If she looks in the bag, she immediately recognizes "pen, wallet, keys." This is different from the problems caused by spinal or peripheral nerve damage, where the affected limb simply does not work correctly, whether or not the patient is looking.

Yes it reminded me of this <a href="http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/lit-med/lit-med-db/webdocs/webdescrips/sacks470-des-.html" target="_blank"> A Leg to Stand On </a> by Oliver Sacks. I recall reading it many years ago.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

picklepuss · 11-10-2002, 02:55 AM

This material on the mechanics of the brain is very interesting, but where do the soul and its afterlife come in? If you are simply using this material as proof of their non-existence, I think it's insufficient. You are all probably well aware of the various arguments regarding the brain/mind distinction. Not to mention the ontological argument; "Which came first--matter or mind?".

I am not saying that the 'soul' exists, and that it lives on after the death of the flesh, (or even just the 'brain'). I just don't see where descriptions of the material disprove hypotheses re the non-material. But I'm open to suggestion.

Personally, I'd be quite happy to know for certain that it's all over when it's over, at least as far as individual identity is concerned. It's that "Hamlet's soliloquy" syndrome.

If you only wish to discuss the brain, please just ignore all this.

11-09-2002, 06:21 AM	#1
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	The soul, the brain, and the afterlife During the past week I've been rereading V.S. Ramachadran's book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688172172/qid=1036852990/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-9646192-9462452?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" target="_blank">Phantoms in the Brain.</a> Basically the book discuss the (sometimes quite strange) effects of brain injury on perception, cognition, memory, temperment and personality. This type of research raises all kinds of interesting questions about the soul, the relationship of the soul to the brain, and the relationship of the brain-state during life to the soul-state after death. Here's just one of many examples that have came to mind. There is abundant evidence that the formation of new long-term epidodic memories is mediated by the hippocampus, and in general is causally dependent upon the brain. Ramachadran discusses one patient who had his entire hippocampus removed. The patient could remember all that happened before surgery, but could not retain any new memories. For instance, the doctor would place a pen under a pillow, in full view of the patient. A couple of minutes later, the doctor would ask where the pen was, and patient would have no idea. After a long conversation with the patient, the doctor would leave the room. When he came back an hour later, the patient would have no memory of the doctor. And so on. This person could laugh at the same jokes over and over, because he could not anticipate the punch line. The same phenomena have been demonstrated in rats. Back when I was a True Believer, I always assumed that my soul/astral body/whatchamacallit would somehow retain memory of my embodied life in the afterlife, and even that new memories would be formed in the afterlief. If that is so, I wonder if this patient would display the same memory impairment in heaven? Would he somehow remember all things that happened to him post-surgery, despite his apparent inability all those years to form new long-term memories? Would his ability to form memories somehow be restored? I wondered the same things back when I worked with Alzheimer's patients. Would they remember the last years of their lives, when to all appearances they could not form any new memories, and indeed appeared to have forgotten just about everything they had learned earlier in life? Any thoughts? Some cool papers on episodic memories and the hippocampus: <a href="http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~shastri/psfiles/ShastriTicsEM02.pdf" target="_blank">Episodic memory and cortico-hippocampal interactions, Lokendra Shastri, Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 6: 162-168. 2002. </a>PDF file <a href="http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~shastri/psfiles/shastri_em.pdf" target="_blank">From Transient Patterns to Persistent Structures: A model of episodic memory formation via cortico-hippocampal interactions, Lokendra Shastri, Behavioral and Brain Sciences. In revision. </a> PDF file Patrick [ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]</p>

11-09-2002, 03:14 PM	#4
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	You will ultimately forget that you were ever born at all in the first place, which begs the question why was is possible for one to be born at all in the first place? How did the self get started? I am sure the brian is not built on episodic memory but a preexising genetic memory which is why we all have our hippocampuses more or less located in the same positions within our brains. [ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

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11-09-2002, 06:39 AM	#2
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	Also, I found some very, very interesting articles online by Rhawn Joseph discussing the effects of injuries to various brain systems on cognition, personality, and so on. The two that I found most interesting are: <a href="http://www.brain-mind.com/FrontalLobe1.html" target="_blank">Joseph, R. (1999). Frontal lobe psychopathology: Mania, depression, aphasia, confabulation, catatonia, perseveration, obsessive compulsions, schizophrenia. Psychiatry, 62, 138-172.</a> <a href="http://www.brain-mind.com/SplitBrainPatient.html" target="_blank">Joseph, R. (1988). Dual mental functioning in a split-brain patient. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 44, 770-779. </a> Split-brain research is especially strange! Especially how the split-brain subjects left-hemispheres tend to confabulate explanations for the behavior of their right hemispheres. And then there is the <a href="http://www.canjneurolsci.org/27augtoc/alien.html" target="_blank">'alien hand syndrome,'</a> which suggests not only that the hemispheres can function independently, but that they can come into conflict with each other! For instance, following a callosotomy or perhaps a stroke in the corpus callosum, you may find your left hand has a tendency to reach out and smack people without 'your' permission. The right, consciously controlled hand may have to physically restrain the left hand, which is controlled by the nonverbal right hemisphere. Very strange indeed!

11-09-2002, 10:00 AM	#3
Emmanuel Goldstein Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 17	Perhaps he could tattoo important bits of information on his body to help him remember. Also a polaroid camera.

11-09-2002, 09:13 PM	#5
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	How does that patient get from room to room? How does he remember where he's going once he sets off? Poor guy must be more of an invalid than a quadraplegic.

11-10-2002, 02:21 AM	#8
Jackalope Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hayward, CA, USA Posts: 1,675	Regarding alien hand syndrome: There's a lesser phenomenon seen in stroke patients called "neglected limb." The patient can often use the affected limb _if they can see it_. But if the affected limb is hidden from sight (behind a drape or in a bag), suddenly the patient cannot use it. One woman I talked to said she can't fasten her bra behind her back, because the minute she's not looking at her hand, it stops working correctly. She also reports that if she reaches in a bag to grab something, she most often can't identify the object by touch. She can reach in her purse and feel, "object, another object, another one" but can't identify them. If she looks in the bag, she immediately recognizes "pen, wallet, keys." This is different from the problems caused by spinal or peripheral nerve damage, where the affected limb simply does not work correctly, whether or not the patient is looking.

11-10-2002, 02:55 AM	#10
picklepuss Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Fall River, N.S. Posts: 142	This material on the mechanics of the brain is very interesting, but where do the soul and its afterlife come in? If you are simply using this material as proof of their non-existence, I think it's insufficient. You are all probably well aware of the various arguments regarding the brain/mind distinction. Not to mention the ontological argument; "Which came first--matter or mind?". I am not saying that the 'soul' exists, and that it lives on after the death of the flesh, (or even just the 'brain'). I just don't see where descriptions of the material disprove hypotheses re the non-material. But I'm open to suggestion. Personally, I'd be quite happy to know for certain that it's all over when it's over, at least as far as individual identity is concerned. It's that "Hamlet's soliloquy" syndrome. If you only wish to discuss the brain, please just ignore all this.

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