Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Gould · 04-08-2002, 05:53 PM

In response to the original question, (which was:

'Why is there purpose if there was no purpose?')

There is no purpose, if by purpose you mean ultimate goal. Therefore the question is meaningless as its first part is incorrect.

If by purpose you mean, 'How can humans invent purpose for themselve if there is no ultimate goal?' then the answer is simple: we're smart.

We can look to the future and plan. We can also live for the joy of the moment. We can look at the past with fondness.

Thus, if we desire to be happy, we can plan and take steps to be say. If we desire to be rich, we can plan and take steps to be so. Et cetera.

Demonstrate that this in any way means that there is required to be an ultimate purpose. To me, it semms like a non sequiter to say 'There exists planning, thus there must be a divine plan'.

And I agree with all those posters who find it very sad that someone cannot find a reason to live without some mythological construction.

However, if people need such a thing to be happy, I am glad that at least they have a lie that comforts them.

ex-preacher · 04-09-2002, 10:05 AM

I think Cristoph is getting at something which is a major problem for Christians who are otherwise ready to deconvert. Christianity (and other religions) provide a meta-purpose which is extremely comforting to believers. To know that an all-knowing god is constantly watching over me, or at least watching me, and has some grand scheme in mind helps make the difficulties of life more bearable.

It is very frightening to consider that there is no super-meaning, no transcendant purpose to life. Yet, as others have shown, we can still make meaning and find purpose. I personally feared that my life would lose all meaning when I admitted to myself that I was an atheist. I was pleasantly surprised to find that life was richer and fuller after I let go of god. Life went from black-and-white to brilliant color.

A book that I would recommend, Cristoph, is Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning."

NOGO · 04-09-2002, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph
Nogo, I'm just talking about what the universe says and how to logically interpret that. I'm not speaking to religion. If reality points to God, then let it. Don't deny it because of you're fear of the possibility of God.

No, you were talking about a reason to live.
I am asking whether you would be happy with God being your reason to live IF your life were still finite (say 75 years)?

What I want to know is this.
Is your belief in God a way of extending your life. What you really want is all but selfish, me myself and I. God does not give you purpose He gives you eternal life.

Put another way is this.
If science can give you eternal life would you still be looking for God and why?
Actually this is not the same question as above but an answer to both should be interesting.

I would bet that a finite life with or without God is unacceptable to believers.

Wyrdsmyth · 04-09-2002, 05:36 PM

Dancing has no purpose. And yet people seem to enjoy it. Sometimes people may give it purpose, and say it has such and such a meaning. But, ultimately, dancing has no purpose per se. So, concluding that it's purposeless, do you want to stridently argue with all the would-be dancers that they shouldn't bother?

Perhaps life is analogous to that. What's the meaning of life? Well, what's the meaning of those birds chirping? Maybe they're trying to attract mates, or ward off predators... but then again, perhaps sometimes they're just singing to sing. What's the meaning of that tree? Well, the word 'tree' has meaning -- it refers to that class of things we call trees. A tree in a poem may perhaps be symbolic for something else. But the thing itself, that tree in your backyard -- what is it's meaning? It's not a symbol, it doesn't refer to anything other than it is.

Maybe life is just like this. Maybe it is just the thing-itself, not a symbol for anything else, it has no particular goal to get any particular old place -- it's just part of the dance of matter and energy in the universe. Is that depressing? I don't think it is, at all. You see, it's all a matter of your perspective. I think the idea of life without 'meaning' is wonderful, just as people dancing for no particular reason is a wonderful thing in its own right. If we find out there's no Grand Choreographer for every dance in the world, and that dancing in general is ultimately meaningless, why should that be disheartening in the least?

It's like that old Oriental saying:

"As where the flowers come from, even the god of springtime doesn't know for sure."

So what if life has arisen, and we know not how, or if it has any special over-reaching purpose.

[For these particular points, I must give credit to Alan Watts, the English philosopher and scholar of Eastern thought, who expressed many of these sentiments in various lectures he gave in the 1960's, which I've listened to on some NPR programs].

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

General Zod · 04-09-2002, 06:14 PM

Since the original post has been demolished, I'd just like to say that this guy is a bad namesake (nicknamesake) for Christoph's everywhere. For shame.

DarkBronzePlant · 04-10-2002, 07:07 AM

Maybe Christoph is just off taking a "Logic 101" class somewhere...

Goliath · 04-10-2002, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkBronzePlant:
<strong>Maybe Christoph is just off taking a "Logic 101" class somewhere...</strong>

We should only be so lucky!

Sincerely,

Goliath

NOGO · 04-11-2002, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Wyrdsmyth
Dancing has no purpose. And yet people seem to enjoy it. Sometimes people may give it purpose, and say it has such and such a meaning. But, ultimately, dancing has no purpose per se. So, concluding that it's purposeless, do you want to stridently argue with all the would-be dancers that they shouldn't bother?
Perhaps life is analogous to that. What's the meaning of life?

About dancing...
In my youth I refused to dance or even try.
I thought it was silly and as you say useless.

Dancing is not useless.
If you have no rhythm you will never understand dance.

I don`t know what the analogy with life is but I suppose that some people lack something and think that life is useless.

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04-08-2002, 05:53 PM	#71
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	In response to the original question, (which was: 'Why is there purpose if there was no purpose?') There is no purpose, if by purpose you mean ultimate goal. Therefore the question is meaningless as its first part is incorrect. If by purpose you mean, 'How can humans invent purpose for themselve if there is no ultimate goal?' then the answer is simple: we're smart. We can look to the future and plan. We can also live for the joy of the moment. We can look at the past with fondness. Thus, if we desire to be happy, we can plan and take steps to be say. If we desire to be rich, we can plan and take steps to be so. Et cetera. Demonstrate that this in any way means that there is required to be an ultimate purpose. To me, it semms like a non sequiter to say 'There exists planning, thus there must be a divine plan'. And I agree with all those posters who find it very sad that someone cannot find a reason to live without some mythological construction. However, if people need such a thing to be happy, I am glad that at least they have a lie that comforts them.

04-09-2002, 10:05 AM	#72
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	I think Cristoph is getting at something which is a major problem for Christians who are otherwise ready to deconvert. Christianity (and other religions) provide a meta-purpose which is extremely comforting to believers. To know that an all-knowing god is constantly watching over me, or at least watching me, and has some grand scheme in mind helps make the difficulties of life more bearable. It is very frightening to consider that there is no super-meaning, no transcendant purpose to life. Yet, as others have shown, we can still make meaning and find purpose. I personally feared that my life would lose all meaning when I admitted to myself that I was an atheist. I was pleasantly surprised to find that life was richer and fuller after I let go of god. Life went from black-and-white to brilliant color. A book that I would recommend, Cristoph, is Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning."

04-09-2002, 05:36 PM	#74
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	Dancing has no purpose. And yet people seem to enjoy it. Sometimes people may give it purpose, and say it has such and such a meaning. But, ultimately, dancing has no purpose per se. So, concluding that it's purposeless, do you want to stridently argue with all the would-be dancers that they shouldn't bother? Perhaps life is analogous to that. What's the meaning of life? Well, what's the meaning of those birds chirping? Maybe they're trying to attract mates, or ward off predators... but then again, perhaps sometimes they're just singing to sing. What's the meaning of that tree? Well, the word 'tree' has meaning -- it refers to that class of things we call trees. A tree in a poem may perhaps be symbolic for something else. But the thing itself, that tree in your backyard -- what is it's meaning? It's not a symbol, it doesn't refer to anything other than it is. Maybe life is just like this. Maybe it is just the thing-itself, not a symbol for anything else, it has no particular goal to get any particular old place -- it's just part of the dance of matter and energy in the universe. Is that depressing? I don't think it is, at all. You see, it's all a matter of your perspective. I think the idea of life without 'meaning' is wonderful, just as people dancing for no particular reason is a wonderful thing in its own right. If we find out there's no Grand Choreographer for every dance in the world, and that dancing in general is ultimately meaningless, why should that be disheartening in the least? It's like that old Oriental saying: "As where the flowers come from, even the god of springtime doesn't know for sure." So what if life has arisen, and we know not how, or if it has any special over-reaching purpose. [For these particular points, I must give credit to Alan Watts, the English philosopher and scholar of Eastern thought, who expressed many of these sentiments in various lectures he gave in the 1960's, which I've listened to on some NPR programs]. [ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

04-09-2002, 06:14 PM	#75
General Zod Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mississippi Posts: 127	Since the original post has been demolished, I'd just like to say that this guy is a bad namesake (nicknamesake) for Christoph's everywhere. For shame.

04-10-2002, 07:07 AM	#76
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	Maybe Christoph is just off taking a "Logic 101" class somewhere...

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