Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Farren · 03-19-2003, 03:54 PM

It just struck me reading some of these posts that every theist argument resembles in logical structure what i think is called a "vacuum diagram" in physics?

Not sure if thats the term, but I've seen elaborate Feynman-style diagrams of quantum fluctuations in a vacuum producing temporary violations in energy conservation that loop back on themselves from future to past over a very brief span. Beyond and before that span, they have no roots in the origin of the universe, and no part in its future (except on the edge of a black hole) because their timeline is local and circular.

Just a curious parallel, well... maybe an obvious one.

Jobar · 03-19-2003, 04:22 PM

Heh. I've noticed that. A bit like a ladder in deep space; you can climb the rungs, but they take you from nowhere to nowhere.

Farren · 03-19-2003, 04:48 PM

Now HERE's a thought. Hawkings says that things change at the edge of a black hole because these "virtual particles" and their complimentary (time reversed) partners can become seperated by the enormous tidal forces, resulting in radiation of the remaining particles from the black hole.

Perhaps if we put apologists in orbit round a black hole, we'd get useable theories.

Mageth · 03-19-2003, 05:16 PM

Or bullshit and anti-bullshit.

Farren · 03-20-2003, 05:50 AM

Is Anti-Bullshit <> Useable Theory?

Jobar · 03-20-2003, 07:36 AM

I say, let's test that! We have a plenitude of apologists- now, if we can just find a convenient black hole...

TerryTryon · 03-20-2003, 10:28 AM

Since god is a mystery, no "proof" can establish his being. All a god-proof can do is is create a vacuum of mystery in which to wedge some attribute of his glory. The very definition of god requires any discussion of his existence to be no more than begging the question!

03-19-2003, 03:54 PM	#1
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	Arguments about god and vacuum diagrams It just struck me reading some of these posts that every theist argument resembles in logical structure what i think is called a "vacuum diagram" in physics? Not sure if thats the term, but I've seen elaborate Feynman-style diagrams of quantum fluctuations in a vacuum producing temporary violations in energy conservation that loop back on themselves from future to past over a very brief span. Beyond and before that span, they have no roots in the origin of the universe, and no part in its future (except on the edge of a black hole) because their timeline is local and circular. Just a curious parallel, well... maybe an obvious one.

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03-19-2003, 04:22 PM	#2
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Heh. I've noticed that. A bit like a ladder in deep space; you can climb the rungs, but they take you from nowhere to nowhere.

03-19-2003, 04:48 PM	#3
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	Now HERE's a thought. Hawkings says that things change at the edge of a black hole because these "virtual particles" and their complimentary (time reversed) partners can become seperated by the enormous tidal forces, resulting in radiation of the remaining particles from the black hole. Perhaps if we put apologists in orbit round a black hole, we'd get useable theories.

03-19-2003, 05:16 PM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Or bullshit and anti-bullshit.

03-20-2003, 05:50 AM	#5
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	Is Anti-Bullshit <> Useable Theory?

03-20-2003, 07:36 AM	#6
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I say, let's test that! We have a plenitude of apologists- now, if we can just find a convenient black hole...

03-20-2003, 10:28 AM	#7
TerryTryon Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Glendale, Arizona, USA Posts: 184	Since god is a mystery, no "proof" can establish his being. All a god-proof can do is is create a vacuum of mystery in which to wedge some attribute of his glory. The very definition of god requires any discussion of his existence to be no more than begging the question!

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