Jayhawker Soule

Good morning, Amie. Could you please suggest a date range for the Flood? Also, I'd be interested to know your views of the Documentary Hypothesis and its reference to 2 flood stories, e.g., <a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/2/Judaism/jp-flood.html" target="_blank">The Flood Story in J and P</a>. Thanks.

atrahasis

Vorkosigan,

Do me a favor, Fix this guy for me...

and

....Pass the pop corn please

Ted Hoffman

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

Ted Hoffman

Amie,
I have gone through this thread and was beginning to admire your will to tackle the questions. Until the pressure of the sky you suggested was too much, the earth became too hot and you started addressing irrelevant issues.

You have said you are a public school teacher. Lets stick to that. A public school teacher who teaches science is NOT a scientist. What are your credentials?

Buffman (so glad you are back!) and others, please lets avoid issues that will derain this discussion.

Amie I have noticed that you have not answered very pertinent questions specifically:

• a list of scientists who beleive in a literal flood
• a date when the flood occurred
• how a wooden ship could have survived without collapsing.
• How savage and hostile animals like the lions, tigers, leopards, wildebeeste, bufalloes, the python, cobra, porcupine, and other nocturnal animals could have "shown up" to be herded to the
  earth in open daylight.
• Scientific evidence for the flood having occured.
• how noah could have accomodated the fodder for the herbivores (given the fodder consumed and the volume ratio) in such a small space.
• Animals like kangaroos, and polar bears that are found in specific regions - how they could have journeyed to the middle east and why?
  The link you were given asks:
  Quote:

  How did the koalas and kangaroos get back to Australia? How did the polar bears and penguins get back the north/south poles? How did the giant tortoises get back to the Galapagos islands? How did the flightless dodos get back to Mauritius? How did the army ants get back to the Amazon rain-forests?

• The silliness of an omnipotent God resorting to using a global flood to correct his disapointing creation.
• The implications in terms of the earths temperature and atmospheric pressure given your earlier explanation as some posters have stated.
• Is the Noah account more credible than the Sumerian Unapitshim's account? Or is it the same story?
• The deadly viruses and bacteria that kill their hosts.
• Why the flood did not eradicate racial diversity since Noah and his family were of the same race.

I am interested in addressing one of your arguments though:

...the sources of water are given to us in Genesis7:11, being "fountains of the great deep and windows of heaven" the phrase fountains of the great deep is used only in Genesis 7:11, however "the great deep" and "the deep" are used biblically to refer to the oceans. Genesis 7:11 says that when the flood began there was a breaking up of the fountains, which implies some kind of release...

"The deep" is found in Genesis 1 and its what I would like to address:

First of all the deep does not refer to the oceans because at the time God was hovering above its surface the earth was without form and was void. The oceans were created a hell of a lot later.

Genesis 1:2
This passage is based on the fact that the ancients beleived that:
a) God was not omnipresent (an omnipresent being cannot move - because he is everywhere - movement implies leaving one place to another where one had not occupied before)

b) The ancients beleived that the earth and the sky were once one (the deep) and that God separated it to have waters above (the sky) and waters below (our seas) which he then collected in pools to allow dry land to emerge according to the creation story.
They beleived the sky(heaven) was just another region of water that is above

In Genesis 1:6-7:
These guys had no concept about what causes rain so they figured its water that is being held up by God (who put the firmanent - something to hold the sky up) - and thats why they found it plausible to write a myth like the flood story.

So if you are telling us the water came from the waters above, you are using the same poor science they were using. I have had christians arguing for big-bang cosmology concerning the creation story in Genesis.

Does your science and faith (you seem to employ them in concert in this case) also tell you who made the void and formless earth that God suddenly took an interest in?

(Oh, for the record, I am confident that a christian public school teacher can teach science very competently. So I dont look askance at you in terms of whether you do your job well)

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

Kosh

Well, that's an understatement. First off Amie, any book recommended by Woodmorappe should be read with extreme caution. Here are a few comments on what people had to say about it:

So, I ask you Amie, is this the type of science you're using to support belief in a literal flood story?

Another question, have you read anything by Hovind and are his views contributing your scientific views on the Flood?

PS. How did you like my "Hot for Teacher" T-shirt today?

Radorth

Asked and answered. But let me explain it AGAIN. For any structure to fail, it must have loads on it. A ship supported evenly along its full length can be as long as you want to make it. If you introduce waves, it can fail, but they must be a certain height and distance apart to make it fail. Are you talking 1 foot waves, 20 ft waves, what?

Does a small dia 500 foot long wooden dowel fail if it is supported it's full length in smooth water? Of course it does.

A long ship would break when it was launced down a steep ramp because it would not be supported in the center for a short time. But that isn't what happens in a flood. The water gradually lifts it along the length.

Is there any limit on how long a house can be built? No, of course not, as long as it is supported along the length.

Radorth

Jayhawker Soule

Your point? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

atrahasis

Your

You don't know english or something::

Try this <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> it might help.. or may be this <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Infinity Lover

Ooh, or what about plausibility of recuperation.

Could life on our planet have reached it's current condition, if the flood/ark scenario had truelly happened? (I'll leave the summing up of all the relevant factors involved in the process up to the bigger brains. Some aspects have already been mentioned, but I suspect there's plenty more.)

Marcel.
(I only tease those who I like )

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

Daisy

Oh! Oh! I know the answer to this one (thanks to reading on some Mormon or anti-Mormon sites)!

Noah's son Ham was touched by you-know-Who after the flood and thusly we got diversity. Some diversity, anyway; I'm not sure how they explain Norwegians.