scumble

Whispers, I think you're a victim of the history of these forums. People are so used to preachy people turning up, that it was asssumed you were trying to "convert" people in a condescending manner. It seems that you are not like that at all. I'd say you're better off as a Buddhist, as it suits your temperament. I thought to myself "Fucking Hell!" when I saw those pictures LadyShea posted, disturbing, but we can all see that natural reproduction suffers from errors, which makes sense when you think about genetic replication.
As far as I know, Buddhism just looks at what is real and how to cope with it. It's the only religion that really "works" as far as I can see, which probably isn't very far, actually

I suppose you were just asking us the questions you were asking yourself.

Whispers

Thanks for your comments. I really was asking questions that I needed answers to, but perhaps I inititially and unintentionally used the wrong tone or style.

Maybe Buddhism is the way forward. I will keep you updated.

Shadowy Man

Well, you could become an atheist, not worry about those questions anymore (they don't plague us all) and get on to the business of living life.

Shake

I wonder: why do theists have such an obsession with conveniently ignoring certain aspects of reality that doesn't fit in with their ideas of their deity?

Whispers

I asked a Christian friend to explain those photographs and I have set out below his reply, which he mailed to me this afternoon. Sorry it is so long...

I have no simple answer to help, but here's some thoughts around the subject of suffering... ...

This is an extract from 'Soul Survivor' page 66 that you have. It's Dr Paul Brand's response to the question 'What about birth defects'
He launched into a description of the complex biochemistry involved in producing one healthy child. The great wonder is not that birth defects occur but that millions more do not. Could a mistake proof world have been created so that the human genome with its billions of variables would never ere in transmission. No scientist could envision such an error-free system in our world of fixed physical laws

I'm sure the CS Lewis book, the problem of pain, has some valuable insights
To view each person as precious in God's eyes because they have been created in his image, that is, with a spirit also helps me in this area.
We have friends to whom a severely handicapped son, Archie was born about seven years ago. He was deaf, had a gruesome cleft pallet and had no eyes, only empty sockets. Many commented on how they knew Archie would be loved and cared for as a gift from God, and how they couldn't imagine better parents for him than Paula and Adrian. This has proved to be the case

If I believed each person was only a physical being, then for those with any sort of disability, there is no hope. However, the bible presents us with a different picture...

2 Cor 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,
3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

All suffer physically to some degree or other. But, it's temporal - the spirit is eternal and can live for ever in bliss...

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Mike, there's an invitation here for you "To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life."
God is not immune from suffering. Jesus choose to die the most gruesome death for you. The photo you showed was indeed horrible. Please take time to imagine these images, painted prophetically by the Psalmist & Isaiah, of Jesus who chose to suffer and die for you...
Psalm 22:11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

Isa 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
7 Because the Sovereign LORD helps me, I will not be disgraced. Therefore have I set my face like flint, and I know I will not be put to shame.

Isa 52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness--

Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgement he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

We read of some of the awful reality of Christ's torture and death recorded by NT historians...

Matt 27:27 Then the governor's soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him.
28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him,
29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said.
30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.
31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

Peter, Jesus' close friend and disciple reflects on the 'why?' of Jesus' suffering and death, and succinctly states with hope and praise...

1 Peter 2: 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

As I've said before, I cannot be sure of all the questions you pose....However, I do know that Jesus endured this for you.. Of this I am sure.

King Rat

Well, at least he was honest enough to admit that he had no answers, very unusual. I'm fascinated by the scriptural quotes he chose to use. It's like he's trying to say, "hey, shit happens, but keep faith." Which is fine, but where is god?

I just can't see how modern xtians can believe in an interventionist god. I would think after reading scriptures like these that they would embrace Spinoza like they do the Nazarene.

...And that brings me right around to one of my pet observations. I haven spoken to many priests, pastors, bishops, etc. and almost to a man they personally hold a more naturalistic, non-interventionist view of god. They leave the interventionist hoo-ha to the penny public.

Two, two religions in one. It's a bargain.

Rhaedas

Again, the wonder is that there's no god doing all this, whether you go by an atheist's view or his. It's up to the physical laws of nature, god made or not, and that's indeed awe-inspiring. A newborn healthy baby or a sunset, neither need nor have god's help. They are miracles in of themselves.

And actually the natural system of genetics, replication, and evolution is pretty darn good at what it does. By definition, if it wasn't efficient, it wouldn't survive.

Precious, yet as said above, not affected by this god. Whether there be no god, or a non-interfering god, it seems there's no real net difference, is there? If the entity in question is not needed, use a razor...

This hits me as the original OP....that if you don't have god behind you, then nothing is good, nothing can be wonderous or precious. That an atheist life is so empty and depressing there is no hope. Why is this a constant theist view? Do they really rely on god being in their life this much, that to take that hope away would make their life immoral, empty, and worthless? Why do atheists not need this at all to have a good life? Do theists ever consider this?

You hope, you have a feeling...there's no proof of this. I for one live this life as it's the only one I've got, since I have no reason to think otherwise, and thus no reason to treat this as some temporary worldly setback before an eternal bliss.

Besides, as has been touched on before, what if I don't want the bliss that is to be given? Do I get a choice? What if a christian's version of heaven is my version of hell? Anyway...

Sorry, while crucifixion was torture, at least Jesus is depicted to have had 33 years of life to life and make whatever difference he did. I can only hope that these babies cannot perceive the slow death (indeed, longer than Jesus' was) they go through. And they never had a chance to live. Which is more tragic?

That's comforting...I'm glad that doctors try to find out the causes and cures for things like this, instead of telling you that Jesus endures the pain for you. There's hope in medicine and science.

King Rat

REAL hope, not just platitudes.

As I sit here doing my job created by science, with no allergies because of science, I can see because of science, I can walk because of science (I had a childhood disease), I can communicate to persons across the globe in an instant because of science, wearing clothing created by science, looking forward to eating food made possible by science, while driving back and forth in a vehicle made possible by science, and on, and on, and on.

Amaranth

Horse hockey. Is your god all powerful or not? One minute he can create everything with some hand waving, and the next, a seriously defected system is implied to be the best he could do. An omnipotent/omniscient being creating a flawed system that results in suffering would be proof that the being in question is evil, or at least immoral.

You simply have to be kidding...

Biff the unclean

Emotional this OCD of yours is a tough nut. I don't doubt that the meds don't help as it really goes to a level of instinctual behavior.
But since you are on these discussion boards I'll offer other considerations for you to worry about (I'm really not that nice of a person).

If god is totally "hands off" with living people why should you expect him to become "hands on" with dead ones? In other words why would a god who didn't care enough about us to help us while we were alive even provide an after life at all?

Now try this one.

A totally hands off god is effectually no different from there being no god at all. If you don't require there to be a god for you to live this present life before death of yours why would you then require ones services for you to live a life after death? In the religion we Irish had before we became Christian the after life was completely independent of gods so this is not a novel suggestion but has been the belief of millions of Celts.

My suggestion on how to handle OCD is that you move here to California. Here people who suffer from OCD call it by it's Chinese name, feng shui. They are able to make a great deal of money off of it, and while they still suffer they suffer in luxury.