Whispers

When I look a my 11 month old son, I see wonder, beauty, amazement and the presence of God...

What would you see? The end result of processes, without real meaning or significance?

When I look at an amazing sunset, I see a god given free work of art.

What would you see?

When I look at you, I would see a child of God, someone divine, precious and full of significance. If you looked at me, what would you see? (keep sarcasm to a minimum if possible )

When someone dies that I love, I see a vision of hope, salvation and glory for that person. What do you see?

When I look at my life, I see a God given world of choices, experiences and the free-will to live my life in the kingdom of God. What do you see?

When you look deep inside yourself, and wonder who you really are, what do you see? I see myself as a protected member of Gods holy family.

Do you have hope in our life? Do you have meaning? Do you feel that you have any kind of significance?

I do....

scumble

Subtract God from all those statements. Voila!

Koyaanisqatsi

No, Whispers, we atheists are all inhuman robots; devoid of emotion, empathy, sympathy, morality and every other humanist ideal you irrationally attribute to an invisible, mystical, fairy-god king-like being, who magically willed the entire universe into existence in order to punish you.

Alan N

I've only quoted your initial question, because the rest follow in kind. Whispers, do you honestly think that someone without a belief in god does not experience awe, beauty, majesty, hope, significance...? I would argue that I experience life more abundantly now than when I was a Christian. The sunset is more majestic. My children are more precious to me than ever. My hope is more centered on what I can affect and what effects me than what the 'end effect' will be. My life is more mine
than ever, without the lingering guilt of owing something to the 'author of life'. My choices are freer. When I look inside myself, I know that I am.

Do you have meaning Whispers, or did God give you meaning? You have only what is given to you, but I have the world.

Whispers

QUOTE---No,Whispers, we atheists are all inhuman robots; devoid of emotion, empathy, sympathy, morality and every other humanist ideal you irrationally attribute to an invisible, mystical, fairy-god king-like being, who magically willed the entire universe into existence in order to punish you.

That is not what I meant =p ....I am just curious as to your responses to the questions I posed.....Do you fancy answering them? =p

QUOTE---Invisible?

Like Love, Radiation, Radio waves etc?

QUOTE---who magically willed the entire universe into existence in order to punish you?

Do you have ANY kind of idea about how the universe came to be? ANY AT ALL? Whilst my idea on the creation of the universe appears to you as a myth, what can you offer me as an alternative? If you have no provable alternative, then I am not so sure you should be self-righteous when knocking other peoples thoughts on this question.

QUOTE---in order to punish you

On the contrary, so he may have a relationship with all of us...Including you my friend.

Shinobi

Whisper, don't count on anyone pulling any punches here. Your going to be smacked down hard.

Ahhh of course, the old Argument from Emotional Soppy Drivel.

You don't really "see" the presence of god, you see something then ascribe "god" to it after already deciding that suich a being exists. Your subjective interpretation of what you see in your kid isn't worth squat as rational argument. Furthermore "presence of god." lacks meaning and begs for a definition. Your mention of "God" also begs the question. Conclusion: Invalid Argument.


I'd see an 11 month old baby. The meaning of such is open to anyones interpretation as there is no ulterior meaning to life. If you claim there is one, back it up with evidence. Just becuase you ascribe a meaning to something based on your pre-existing christian notions does not make you correct. Invalid.



A person See response above. You have no more reason to assume we are children of God as opposed to Zeus, Satan, Asmodeus or the tooth fairy. If your going to assert things like that then back it up with evidence. Again, mention of "god" begs the question.


I see the person being dead. It sucks. But that's what happens and I'm sure I'll get over it eventually without recourse to childish notions of magical fairy lands in the sky. Define hope, define salvation and define glory. Final note on this "argument": the amount of comfort a belief gives you has no relation whatsoever as to it's truth. If you disagree with this basic standard of reasonable thought then back it up with evidence. Hmmmm, guess what? Your implication of an afterlife begs the question?



Ditto my above responses to this line as well.



And that one.



You can't have hope for itself, you hope for certian things. The word "hope" by itself means nothing. Good one, you just abused language. Meaning? yes my life has plenty of meaning, contrary to the fantasies of theists we atheists are not clinically depresssed individuals with empty lives that only your god can fill. I put that meaning there and I'm quite happy with that meaning. It's far better than the infantile meaning ascribed to life by an old, deadweight superstition. Ditto that for significance.

Now as you frequently abused language in your, shall we say, less-than-rational argument it's difficult to know what you are talking about. I tried my best but it's like forming a counter-argument against poetry. Your entire post is logically invalid. Did you think we will all burst into tears after reading this and cry out "Ohhh, I see now! It's beutiful! I've been such a sinner, forgive me Jesus! waaaaaaaaaaggghhhh!

:boohoo:

Shadowy Man

These things are definitely detectable.

Who said the universe came to be?? You will have the same problem explaining where your god came from as I will of explaining where the universe came from.

Here's a couple of questions for you:

When you look at a bubble chamber, and see the traces formed by subatomic particles leaving decaying radioactive material what do you see?

When you look at an MRI scan, what do you see?

When you look at star formation induced by interacting galaxies what do you see?

When you look at seismographic records of earthquakes half a world away what do you see?

Following these pursuits, observations and study of the way that the universe works, has led me towards the belief that the gods of the man-made religions are myths. I can't discount a Deist-style creator god who set up the fundamental parameters of the universe, got it started and then never returned; however, I also can't see how such a god really is that relevant.

Whispers

QUOTE---Whisper, don't count on anyone pulling any punches here. Your going to be smacked down hard.

I am here to learn, debate and share with you all. If I have to take flak for my beliefs I can live with it no worries. This is the fun of the Internet, isnt it? Oh, and thanks for the warning!

QUOTE---Ahhh of course, the old Argument from Emotional Soppy Drivel.

Hmmm, because it is not logical, is has no relevance? Emotions, love, sympathy, compassion have no weight because they cannot be logically argued?

QUOTE---You don't really "see" the presence of god.

REPLY---Your subjective interpretation of what I don’t see isn't worth squat as rational argument. Furthermore ""You don't really "see" the presence of god"" lacks meaning and begs for a definition.

QUOTE---Your subjective interpretation of what you see in your kid isn't worth squat as rational argument. Furthermore "presence of god." lacks meaning and begs for a definition. Your mention of "God" also begs the question. Conclusion: Invalid Argument.

REPLY---I am sharing my viewpoint, that’s all I can do isnt it? We can ask for a definition of this and a definition of that, and in most arguments this is required so the combatants can start on an equal footing. However, you ask for a definition of God, and in the same post say"You don't really "see" the presence of god". Tell me, should I ask you for a definition of what God is, so I know if I can see him or not? Conclusion: You maybe right about lack of rational argument, but you are also conflicting in your responses.

QUOTE---I'd see an 11 month old baby. The meaning of such is open to anyones interpretation as there is no ulterior meaning to life.

REPLY---So you say. I say different.

QUOTE---If you claim there is one, back it up with evidence. Just becuase you ascribe a meaning to something based on your pre-existing christian notions does not make you correct. Invalid.

REPLY---Just because I don’t immediately prove it, does this mean that its not true. If there is no evidence present, can you then say with all confidence, it must not be so?
Or should you say, I don’t know? Invalid right back at ya =p

QUOTE---I see the person being dead. It sucks. But that's what happens and I'm sure I'll get over it eventually without recourse to childish notions of magical fairy lands in the sky.

REPLY---What is your basis for this belief in the afterlife, or lack of? Childlike? Is being childlike a crime? Being like a child can in certain instance be a gift and very precious. You say childlike in a derogatory way, and I think children are just awesome.

QUOTE---Define hope, define salvation and define glory. Final note on this "argument": the amount of comfort a belief gives you has no relation whatsoever as to it's truth. If you disagree with this basic standard of reasonable thought then back it up with evidence. Hmmmm, guess what? Your implication of an afterlife begs the question?

REPLY---Thanks for the update on the "the amount of comfort a belief gives you has no relation whatsoever as to it's truth" line! I agree.

QUOTE---You can't have hope for itself, you hope for certian things. The word "hope" by itself means nothing. Good one, you just abused language.

REPLY---Typo, I meant to say your not our.

QUOTE---Meaning? yes my life has plenty of meaning, contrary to the fantasies of theists we atheists are not clinically depresssed individuals with empty lives that only your god can fill. I put that meaning there and I'm quite happy with that meaning. It's far better than the infantile meaning ascribed to life by an old, deadweight superstition. Ditto that for significance.

REPLY---What you assign has meaning, and what you don’t doesn’t? Is that it?

QUOTE---Now as you frequently abused language in your, shall we say, less-than-rational argument it's difficult to know what you are talking about. I tried my best but it's like forming a counter-argument against poetry. Your entire post is logically invalid. Did you think we will all burst into tears after reading this and cry out "Ohhh, I see now! It's beutiful! I've been such a sinner, forgive me Jesus! waaaaaaaaaaggghhhh!

REPLY---Tell me in all honesty.....do you really think I believed that " you will all burst into tears after reading this and cry out "Ohhh, I see now! It's beutiful! I've been such a sinner, forgive me Jesus! waaaaaaaaaaggghhhh!"???????????? You are not argueing rationally yourself here, merely being sarcastic.

QUOTE---Your entire post is logically invalid.

REPLY---Your entire post is antagonistic, aggressive and arrogant. Well done! I can see that I will learn much from you on the benefits of rejecting God.

Steven Carr

I see somebody clinging to a love that he will not allow to die, hence the wishful thinking

I see a world full of choices, experiences and free will decisions, without supernatural beings who want to deceive and manipulate us - a universe which is indifferent to us, and so not malevolently inclined, unlike the Christian world of demons and malevolent forces.

'Protected'? What do you mean 'protected'? Will bad things never happen to you?

Alan N

This had to be what you expected.

I attempted to respond in a manner that was not overly antagonistic or belittling (sp?). I am not a Christian, but I respect Christians. I do not believe in God, but I respect people that do. I have a system of belief that differs from yours. I don't experience life any less because of it. I experienced deep grief over leaving Christianity...but I am on the other side now, and like I posted before...my life is more rich now than ever.

Please don't minimize the experience (life) of non christians. We differ in belief, but not in our humanity.