Athius

Well gee sorry if you don't agree with me, I just said everything that I had learned in school by my teachers back in elementary and middle school in Iran. I don't see how what I said crosses into Politics. And the main reason why the masses are converting out in Iran is because they're tired of being oppressed by a bunch of B.S. telling them how to behave and live, but that's not my story, I converted out because I simply used logic and research.

beoba

Very educational post UCE. A question popped up in my head when you said this:

Are people able to murder other people in heaven (nothing the "do whatever they want")?

Athius

Hah, that's a nice question, I never thought about that. It is never mentioned in detail what you can and cannot do in heaven. It only says you can do whatever you want, and that there are no more worries, stress, pain, and evil in any form. You could guess from the "no evil" part that noone really dies or kills so my best guess would be no. If you really enjoy killing someone I guess you wouldn't be there in the first place anyway

Amos

Thanks, it is nice to here that you didn't think about it much.

Sabine Grant

Hello oriecat... I surely hope you would not go thru all those transformations to assert your faith if you had any. You forgot the braiding of the hair also by the way...
Maybe " we do not all know" what the natural use of the woman is. I do not feel used as a woman. I am rather happy being a woman. I would not trade my gender.
I deplore the effects some religions and cultures have had on the treatment of our gender. But personaly, I am tickled by the occasional benefits I may recieve from being a woman....a few examples... I never had to struggle changing a flat tire alone.... I enjoy the " Ladys first" and I rarely have to hit with my foot the exit door of a store while my arms are loaded with packages. Plus I get to wear far prettier outfits than men can ever wear.... and large straw hats.....etc etc...
Just blowing a little breath of fresh air in the midst of this topic.

MollyMac

11.22 pm GMT: MollyMac turns blue having waited with baited breath for nearly two hours

Is your frantic search for evidence that will help you sanitise the abominable teachings of Islam taking rather longer than you thought it would, River?

hinduwoman

UCE, this is how many orthodox Hindus tried to explain the suboridnation of women. But I do not buy it. As for Islam, try to read what the scriptures and shariah actually say instead of relying on schooltexts.

http://debate.domini.org/newton/womeng.html#woman

The intellectual and religious deficiencies of women are stated in the following Hadith found in Sahih al-Bukhari which is considered by Muslim scholars to be "The most authentic book after the Book of Allah (ie. the Qur'an)":[13]


"Allah's Apostle once said to a group of women : 'I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion.'"[14]
...
Commenting on the Qur'anic verse Q. 30:21 which states "And of His signs is that He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may repose in them" Razi said:


"His saying 'created for you' is a proof that women were created like animals and plants and other useful things, just as the Most High has said 'He created for you what is on earth' and that necessitates the woman not to be created for worship and carrying the Divine commands. We say creating the women is one of the graces bestowed upon us and charging them with Divine commands to complete the graces bestowed upon us, not that they are charged as we men are charged. For women are not charged with many commands as we are charged, because the woman is weak, silly, in one sense she is like a child, and no commands are laid upon a child, but for the grace of Allah upon us to be complete, women had to be charged so that they may fear the torment of punishment and so follow her husband, and keep away from what is forbidden, otherwise corruption would be rampant."[15]
...
Hadi Sabzevari, in his commentary on Sadr al-Mote'alihin wrote:


That Sadr ad-Deen Shirazi classifies women as animals is a delicate allusion to the fact that women, due to the deficiency in their intelligence and understanding of intricacies, and due to their fondness of the adornments of the world, are truly and justly among the mute animals [al-haywanti al-sa^mita]. They have the nature of beasts [ad-dawwa^b], but they have been given the disguise of human beings so that men would not be loath to talk to them and be compelled to have sexual intercourse with them. That is why our immaculate Law [shar'ina al-mutahhar] takes men's side and gives them superiority in most matters, including divorce, "nushuz," etc. (Quoted in Soroush, Abdolkarim, _Farbehtar az ideoloji_, Sera^t, Tehran, 1373 A.H.S.). [A.H.S. = After the Hegira, in Solar years].
...
"'Omar [one of the Khalifs] was once talking when his wife interjected, so he said to her: 'You are a toy, if you are needed we will call you.'"[21]
And 'Amru Bin al-'Aas, also a Khalif, said: "Women are toys, so choose."[22]

This was not just 'Amru Bin al-'Aas and 'Omar's opinions. Mohammad himself said:


'The woman is a toy, whoever takes her let him care for her (or do not lose her)."[23]
...
beating the wife mildly is


"allowed in four cases (1) When she does not wear fineries though wanted by the husband, (2) When she is called for sexual intercourse and she refuses without any lawful excuse, (3) When she is ordered to take a bath [to clean herself] from impurities for prayer and she refuses and (4) When she goes abroad without permission of her husband."[60]
In another footnote the translator of Mishkat Al-Masabih said,


"No wife shall refuse her husband what he wants from her except on religious grounds ie. at the time of menstrual flow or fasting. Some theologians regard this refusal as unlawful as the husband may get enjoyment from his wife in other ways, by embracing, kissing etc. The duty of the wife is to give him comforts in his bed whenever he wants her."[61]
...
Ghazali:


"Since among Arabs passion is an overpowering aspect of their nature, the need of their pious men to have sex has been found to be the more intense. And for the purpose of emptying the heart to the worship of God they have been allowed to have sex with women slaves if at some time they should fear that this passion will lead them to commit adultery. Though it is true that such action could lead to the birth of a child that will be a slave, which is a form of destruction,...yet enslaving a child is a lighter offence than the destruction of religious belief. For enslaving the new born is a temporary thing but by committing adultery eternity is lost."[82]

Ghazali gives us an example of this overpowering sexual desire.


"The son of 'Omar who was an ascetic, and a scholar, used to break his fast by having sex before having food. And he might have had sex with three of his slave girls before the last meal."[83]
...
"The marriage contract is designed by the legislator so that the husband may benefit from the sexual organ of the woman and the rest of her body for the purpose of pleasure. As such the husband owns by the marriage contract, this exclusive benefit."[112]
"The accepted understanding in the different schools of jurisprudence, is that what has been contracted in marriage is for the benefit of the man from the woman, not the opposite. The followers of Imam Malik declared the marriage contract is a contract of ownership of benefit of the sexual organ of the woman and the rest of her body.

The followers of Imam Shafi'i said, "The most accepted view is that what is been contracted upon is the woman, that is the benefit derived from her sexual organ." Others said, "What has been contracted is both the man and the woman. So according to the first opinion the wife can not demand sex from her husband because it is his right [not hers], and according to the second opinion she can demand to have sex with him."

The followers of Imam Abu Hanifa said, "The right of the sexual pleasure belongs to the man, not the woman, by that it is meant that the man has the right to force the woman to gratify himself sexually. She on the other hand does not have the right to force him to have sex with her except once [in a lifetime]. But he must, from a religious point of view, have sex with her to protect her from being morally corrupt."[113]


THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE DOWRY


"The dowry (Mahr) is a technical term denoting the money which must be given to the woman in the marriage contract in exchange for enjoying her."[114]
"The most worthy condition you fulfil is one with which you were given the right to enjoy the (woman's) private parts."[115]

...

JEST2ASK

All I can say is that I thought Christainity was whack .... I had no idea this was Islams's view on women I thought it was only the total misuse by fringe fundamentalists (or the uninformed) and baised reporting from Christain sources ... This is barbaric I can not see any way someone could (or would want to justify) this viewpoint.

Sorry but the only other reaction I have had close to this is when I read some of the writtings of Martin Luther on Jews


Yes Truth can be stranger than ficition ......

River

Boy, did you guys make a mess while I was gone.

First of all Hinduwomen is very uninformed. There are very subtle differences in the Hadiths in arabic from english. Most scholars take great hesitation in translating Hadiths to English because many "phraseology" and parables turn out awry, like your good friend Hinduwomen has just demonstrated. Secondly the Hadiths are not the words of G-d and has never been said to be the words of G-d by Muslims. The Quran is the literal Word of G-d. Therefore I will limit the my argument to the Quran and the status of women. Keep in mind that modern Islamic civilization is very corrupt. This is due to dictators and oppressors that drifted away from Islam, and use Islam as guise to build up their political position. Lets begin with the basics....


To Separate Fact From Fiction

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Contrary to widespread erroneous belief,
Contrary to widespread negative stereotyping, and
Contrary to regrettable practices in some Islamic societies
where anti-Islamic culture traditions have won over Islamic
teachings and where women are subdued (and men even more so)


This information has been written with the objective of briefing you on the true Islamic teachings regarding women laid down by the Quran and prophet Mohammad over 14 centuries ago.


Islam declared women and men equal.

Islam condemned pre-Islamic practices degrading and oppressing women.

The same injunctions and prohibitions of Islam equally apply to both sexes.

Islam gave woman the right of inheritance and the right of individual independent ownership unhampered by father, husband, brother, son or anyone else.

Islam gave women the right to accept or reject a marriage proposal free from pressure, and by mutual agreement to specify in the marriage contract that she has the right to divorce (if she misses that option she has the right to seek court divorce if she deems the marriage to have failed beyond repair).

Islam does not require woman to change her name at marriage.

Islam protects the family and condemns the betrayal of marital fidelity. It recognizes only one type of family: husband and wife united by authentic marriage contract.

"Heaven is at the feet of mothers", is a basic Islamic teaching.

"The best of you are the kindest to their wives and I am your best to mine", is a teaching by prophet Mohammad.

Islam enjoins sounds morality in thinking, behavior and appearance. Dress fashions and social patterns that reduce woman to a sex object and exploit her as such are not acceptable to Islam.

The observance of chastity and moral standards is equally demanded by Islam from both men and women. "Women are the siblings of men", is a saying of prophet Mohammad.



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Published by Islamic Center of Southern California
For more information please contact:
Islamic Center of Southern California
434 S. Vermont Avenue
Los Angeles, CA 90020
(213) 382 - 9200

River

Now lets take things a step further.........