woodchuck

Well I know it's really dumb of me to step in the middle of this with my nihilistic evil Christian belief, but aw what the heck it's fun being devoured by you guys and I know you love it too.

You seem very angry at the hell idea, but are also pretty misinformed. Of course I will tell you that hell is not a torture chamber and that no where does the bible say it is and you will just roll your eyes and continue using your "hell is a torture chamber God is a sick bastard" excuse. Well do what you want it's a free country.

First I will quote the beautifully mature preachings of antijesus priest sullster:

Show me where in the bible hell is described as a torture chamber. After you do that, show me where it says he created hell for his creations. Or are these just assumptions you lean on so you can dance around and sing “god is a piece of crap?” Obviously God should be more moral like you, calling the Christian God what you have. (I’m not trying to stick up for God here, I know he can take care of himself, call him what you want)

You guys all love to talk about Nazis and nice old ladies, but when it comes down to you all you do is change the subject. You have a lot to say about morals but I guess in a place like this where truth is so flimsy it could be anything I will have to ask you to define morality, which I’m sure you will deem just as flimsy and changeable. It’s a big topic but I guess you guys brought it up.

So here’s what I want to know. What is a human being worth to you? If you base their worth on their morals then what is morality? Are you moral? If yes then what excuse do you have for when you are not moral? If no then why do you care so much about morals? Why should God let you into heaven?

Every one is whining about why God shouldn’t send them to hell, so what’s your reason? You are implying that man has some kind of universal value and that there must be some kind of universal moral law that says that it would be immoral of God to do these things- or in some societies is it ok for God to send you to hell?
I want to hear you guys type a message to my piece of crap God and tell him why you are so special that you deserve heaven. No lying.

Well this will be interesting if anyone actually does it. Most likely you will change the subject back to Nazis and old ladies. Like I said, do that if you want, it’s a free country. But if you continually avoid looking inside yourself you will never find God, because that’s where he wants to meet you.

You say if Christianity was a moral religion it wouldn’t believe in hell (more words of sullster). I guess if we have the freedom to redefine morality then that could be true. But also, if Christianity is the truth then hell is part of that truth and belief is irrelevant. Tell me what it would take for Christianity to be moral (according to your brilliance which must far exceed God’s).

Hell is a place of suffering, not torture. Same thing? Not at all. Torture must be inflicted by someone else (you claim God tortures), suffering can be self inflicted and is constantly by us.
Do you suffer? Maybe you have a low self esteem or you have depression. Maybe you have an addiction. We all have had things inside of us that we suffer from, and the deeper we get, the deeper our suffering. I know people who are so addicted to drugs that they don’t get high anymore, they just take the drugs so they don’t get so sick they want to die. They live in misery- and yet they chose that misery. Is there a way out? Yes, but many are to proud to admit they need it.

We are the same. We live in depression, hate, anger, pride, and all of these things that eat away at us. We live separate from God and therefore we live outside of what he wants for us, and we go on too proud to admit that we need something beyond ourselves, and if we do choose to go solo in this life, then we choose to go solo for eternity. Scripture describes hell as dark and lonely. It is just the ultimate end of the life we chose.

Yes you follow satan into hell but most of those who do will not realize it was him. Satan is a deceiver and a liar and does his best when you do not realize he exists. Satan merely thinks that he knows better than God, and if you also do then hell is the place for you to go and enjoy you and you alone for all eternity. Why would you want to go to heaven if God is big piece of crap? That would start to really smell bad a few hundred years into eternity.

Anyway, I am very interested to hear you all respond to the above questions. I will now prepare for a good old fashioned “free thought” lashing for freely thinking and coming to the conclusion that God is who He says he is. Have fun.

-EEf the woodchuck

Enlighten Me

Woodchuck---you say:

Tell me what it would take for Christianity to be moral...

1) For me, a religion would have to be no less just than what our own legal system dictates. For example, a punishment should "fit the crime."

2) A moral religion would not use human sacrifice to appease an angry god. Seems mighty primitive to me.

3) A moral religion would not rely on getting regular folks to believe that their "sinful" existence is sufficiently abominable to a god that someone must die to "pay a penalty." But I have to admit that this is a brilliant way to keep the industry of religion going.

4) A moral religion would not demand that its adherents relinquish their ability to think for themselves.

And, by the way, we atheists don't think a god should let us go to heaven, because we don't believe in a life beyond this one and we don't believe in a god.

Also, being a Christian does not make one immune to depression, or any other negative aspect of life, for that matter, including bitterness, which, sadly, is apparent in your post. Yes--you can spout dogma, but the taunting, mocking, bitter tone will not win you many friends---much less converts, here...

[ June 02, 2002: Message edited by: Enlightened Lady ]</p>

excreationist

From the Bible:

Matthew 25:31-34,41,46:
Well here God is sending people to hell, though it is true that hell was just supposed to be for Satan - and his angels.

excreationist

woodchuck:
Do you think that God forces the unsaved to endure suffering, against the will of the unsaved? If so, that sounds like torture. (Unless it has some kind of medical benefit, etc)

WWSD

Originally posted by woodchuck:

You guys all love to talk about Nazis and nice old ladies, but when it comes down to you all you do is change the subject. You have a lot to say about morals but I guess in a place like this where truth is so flimsy it could be anything I will have to ask you to define morality, which I?m sure you will deem just as flimsy and changeable. It?s a big topic but I guess you guys brought it up.

Morality is programmed into humans by social and biological evolution. That is my belief, take it of leave it. Morality is what is best for survival in a social context. Kill you neighbor and your other neighbors will be less likely to help you out in a famine. That's the big picture IMO. I know this is oversimplification, but I don't really feel like typing for three hours just to flesh this idea out.


So here?s what I want to know. What is a human being worth to you? If you base their worth on their morals then what is morality? Are you moral? If yes then what excuse do you have for when you are not moral? If no then why do you care so much about morals? Why should God let you into heaven?


A human being is worh to me what thier actions deem them worth. An honest man is worth more than a dishonest man, because the dishonest man is more likely to harm me.

What is morality? Morality is a code of laws governing social interactions based on social and environmental contexts, and also based on biological evolution of the human mind. I explain human's aversion to cannabalism to the evolution of disease avoidance mechanisms. You may attribute it to something else. I attribute the lack of 100% marital infidelity to mechanisms evolved to A) control mate reproductive resources, B)avoid extrapair copulations from becoming lethal C) mechanisms to ensure that one's gees survive relatively well into the next genration. And I could go on. I could also give you a run down on the biological roots of the existant marital infidelity.

Am I moral? In my mind I am moral. I don't cause undue harm to my fellow humans. I don't try to break up families, I have not raped or murdered, I do not steal. These things could get me into hot water and compromise my life. Once again I have oversimplified here, but again, I haven't the desire to write a manifesto right now.

What excuse do I have for when I am not moral?
Please site a time when I have been amoral and I will think of something. If I go next door and gun down my neighbor for no reason, I have no excuse. If I rip off a loaf of bread to feed my starving children, well, I think I have an excuse. Perhaps allowing them to die would be the moral route in the eyes of your god?

Why do I care about morals?
Who wants to be raped, murdered, swindled etc? Not me, not you. I would hope that you were moral enough not to try to rip off my credit card numbers and I will not rip off yours. That is one good reason why I care about morals. I could think of more but I'm awfully tired right now.

Why should god let me into heaven?
I don not hold a beleif in the Xtian god or the xtian heaven. Why do you think Gandalf should give you some nifty fireworks? The question isn't relevant.


Every one is whining about why God shouldn?t send them to hell, so what?s your reason? You are implying that man has some kind of universal value and that there must be some kind of universal moral law that says that it would be immoral of God to do these things- or in some societies is it ok for God to send you to hell?


I am not whining about god sending me to hell. I do not believe in the xtian god or the xtian hell.

The idea that a god would send his creations to hell for all of the various reasons stated by many an xtian is cruel because it does not translate to what a benevolant being would do.

You don't stick your kids in the oven for all eternity when they write on the walls do you?
If your neighbor did that, would you not report your neighbor to the police? Why is your god different?


I want to hear you guys type a message to my piece of crap God and tell him why you are so special that you deserve heaven. No lying.

I can't resist this one...tap...tap tap tap...tap tap tap tap tap tap.

OK enough tomfoolery. I have no need to lie to your god, just as you have no need to lie to Gandalf.


Well this will be interesting if anyone actually does it. Most likely you will change the subject back to Nazis and old ladies. Like I said, do that if you want, it?s a free country. But if you continually avoid looking inside yourself you will never find God, because that?s where he wants to meet you.

Did you hear about the old lady who is a Nazi?

Oh how many times have I searched and searched for enlightenment only to be left with nothing? Can you tell me woodchuck? Can you honestly say that you know? Some groud rules here, you cannot refer to the old refrain "if you truely searched you'd be an xtian" because that is a cop out. You cannot resort to that, because then I will resort to talking about old ladies who are Nazis since the conversation will have gone to the dogs.

If god wants to meet me, he has had numerous opportunities. Numerous. I have looked inwards many a time. Remember the ground rule as you read this please. I looked and asked and pleaded and supplicated and nothing ever happened.
Can you tell me why without resorting to the refrain I mentioned above? It would be interesting to hear your opinion. Oh, and no permutations of the above refrain either as they are all pretty much faulty. Example: you rejected god even while you claimed to be looking for him etc etc...

You say if Christianity was a moral religion it wouldn?t believe in hell (more words of sullster). I guess if we have the freedom to redefine morality then that could be true. But also, if Christianity is the truth then hell is part of that truth and belief is irrelevant. Tell me what it would take for Christianity to be moral (according to your brilliance which must far exceed God?s).

Why so much anger? Hell is a place of eternal torture where I go for a white lie and person x goes for killing fifty children after sodomizing them. In the world I live in, there are different consequences for the two actions I just described.

Apply this thnking to your own life, if you have an adulturous thought about that attractive person you just saw, you might go to hell and suffer forever. If you kill and dismember that attractive person you just saw, you might go to hell and suffer for all eternity. Does this seem fair? Isn't fairness part of morality?

Hell, as a core doctrine, is not a fair punishment. Thus, being extremely unfair, it is immoral. Xtianity would be more fair if it doled out punishment according too the sin committed. A slap on the wrist for a white lie, a long interment in hell for murder. Seems to make sense to me. Or no hell at all, maybe just non-existance?

Unless you want to start making claims about being with and being against, than I have to say this, a man who never in his life hears of xtianity will go to hell. Since he never heard of JC, he never had a chance to follow him. He dies and finds himself at the short end of the stick held by a god he didn't even know about. Does this seem fair?
Are all native americans, prior to europeans coming to the americas, in hell? Does this seem fair?

I have more objections but once again I don't feel like writing a manifesto.


Hell is a place of suffering, not torture. Same thing? Not at all. Torture must be inflicted by someone else (you claim God tortures), suffering can be self inflicted and is constantly by us.

What about the hypothetical man who never heard of your god? He did not have the choice to make, thus he is put into hell by force, not by choice. Suffering is inflicted on him against his will, he is tortured.


Do you suffer? Maybe you have a low self esteem or you have depression. Maybe you have an addiction. We all have had things inside of us that we suffer from, and the deeper we get, the deeper our suffering. I know people who are so addicted to drugs that they don?t get high anymore, they just take the drugs so they don?t get so sick they want to die. They live in misery- and yet they chose that misery. Is there a way out? Yes, but many are to proud to admit they need it.


Too proud or a result of a bioogical process? Do you know much about the psychopharmacological aspects of narcotics and the biological basis of addiction?
Can you stop eating and drinking at this moment? Try it, it will take a strong force of will to not do so. Many adictive drugs activate the same reword centers of the brain as eating. Imagine your brain interpreting your heroine use as the intake of a substance that it thinks is crucial to survival. Imagine taking that substance away.
Imagine not eating or drinking anymore. Not just dieting, but no food. None.
I posit that addiction has nothing or vanishingly little to do with pride.

As for suffering, yes, I do suffer. I suffer from depression. It is an up and down tpe of thing. I suspect that it is biochemical in nature. But I will not take drugs because I do not like the effects they have on my neurophysiology.

P.S., addicts stop getting "high" for biological reasons as well.


We are the same. We live in depression, hate, anger, pride, and all of these things that eat away at us. We live separate from God and therefore we live outside of what he wants for us, and we go on too proud to admit that we need something beyond ourselves, and if we do choose to go solo in this life, then we choose to go solo for eternity.

We are not the same. I live in depression because my neurochem is wacky. I hate people because they do horrible things to each other. I'm angry because of the same reasons. I'm proud because I've let go of all of my superstitions and embraced the universe as a fascinating place to live. These things, especially pride, DO NOT eat away at me and in fact have made me a more thoughtful and stronger person.

I am not too proud to admit that I need something outside of myself. That is why I have friends, that is why I visit my family.

I have no need to believe in a god, as this does not fit into the universe as I see it. I also do not believe that having faith will do anything but confuse me as it would clearly violate some of the laws of science. And no, science is not a religion, please refrain from that old line.


Scripture describes hell as dark and lonely. It is just the ultimate end of the life we chose.

Scripture, as has already been quoted above, describes hell as fiery and painful.

Yes you follow satan into hell but most of those who do will not realize it was him. Satan is a deceiver and a liar and does his best when you do not realize he exists.

A tired old line that one. I do not believe in Satan. Oh well, what are you gonna do? I have always wondered this, but, why does god allow satan to decieve if god is interested in doing what's best for us humans? If satan has so much power on this earth, why has god left it to his followers to do battle with such an immense force? Seems very contraproductive to me. The above are serious questions so please don't ignore them.


Satan merely thinks that he knows better than God, and if you also do then hell is the place for you to go and enjoy you and you alone for all eternity.

Can you demonstrate your claim about Satan above? How do you know? Seriously.

I do not think that I know better than your god since I also do not think that I know better than Gandalf. Your statements almost seem to indicate that you might beleive that atheists are just angry at god and are disbelieveing in him just to spite him. Is that so?

Why would you want to go to heaven if God is big piece of crap? That would start to really smell bad a few hundred years into eternity.

HAHA, funny pun. Seriously though, I would love to go to heaven, esp Islamic heaven where I get all sorts of good food and lots of virgins. Sounds wonderful! But I see no evidence for its existence, thus I believe it is as real as Mordor.
Certainly you do not believe in Mordor do you? Really, tis the same concept.


Anyway, I am very interested to hear you all respond to the above questions. I will now prepare for a good old fashioned ?free thought? lashing for freely thinking and coming to the conclusion that God is who He says he is. Have fun.

Your post did not, in any way that I can see, make any conclusions about anything. Sure, you were free to think about the nature of your god, but you were constrained by the parameters laid down by your faith. In that sense, you were not really "free" (IMO) to think about the nature of your religion. Would you feel guilty if you questioned the existance of your deity? Seriously, do you?

Where does god say he is who he says he is? The bible right? How do we know the bible is true? Because god wrote it. And how do we know god is who he says he is? Cuz its in the bible. And how do we kow that the bible is true? Because god wrote it. And how do we know that god is who he says he is? Because it says so in the bible.

Bree

Why would I want to waste A) my time and B) a perfectly good post typing to someone who doesn't exist? Even better - typing to someone who believes in someone that doesn't exist?

I'm interested in how you think you're "freely thinking" - all you do is read the Bible and take it at face value. Granted, there's something to be said about having taken the time to read the Bible AND understanding it in it's literal sense (since many people can't do that - just give [i]Hamlet[i/] to a random stranger and see how well they do with that) - but "true" free-thinking is reading something, thinking about what you've read and how it will apply to your life - and then ask yourself questions challenging what you've read.

This is called "critical thinking" - hope you've heard of it.

And if you hate us so much and think we're such idiots, why stick around? Check out RRP.

woodchuck

All righty then. I must apologize for my screwed up keyboard.. I did not realize that it was turning every puncuatin into a question mark, it goes whack sometimes.

Ok first off I want to thank those who responded, I do need to clear a bit up.

Most of my post (hey I rapped) was aimed at Sullster because of the tone of his post, I was just kind of speaking his language I guess, I am not here to hurt anyone, but I do believe in being bold and challenging people. I know that you guys think that I’m the one who’s conformed to some sort of churches laws, but it’s not like that, I was at one time an atheist (this is not saying that because of that past I somehow know more than you, just sayin it cause it’s true). I guess I’m sick of everyone acting like they are so open minded because they don’t believe in God, that’s baloney. But I do not hate any of you, I love atheists (and I do not say that because God makes me) most Christians are robotic and phoney, usually atheists are at least somewhat willing to be a little more real, why else would I be here? I’m not here to evangelize because the way I see it, most of the people I see on here are so closed to God that no answers will do them any bit of good, I just like to talk about this stuff, I think it’s fun- and the best thing is that we can all go on forever, because we’re talking about that part of existence that it seems no one will ever really be able to prove.

I will answer as much as I can (and as much as I think is necessary)

Ok first enlightened lady, thanks for your honest response, you seem pretty cool.

Ok, I am going to help you understand what Christianity teaches here, not to try to get you to believe it, but to clear up what you think it may teach. I am not trying to insult your intelligence, I think that most of the people are much more intelligent than I- but I do not think that takes intelligence to find the truth (I wont get into that right now).

Ok I will quote Jesus here:
“Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. “Woe to you Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you Capernaum? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” (Matthew 11:20-24)

So here we have people being sentenced according to there deeds. Yes, they all go to hell, but it seems there must be different degrees of hell.
Also, I know that this won’t help much, but it helps with perspective; Jesus says that the greatest command is to love the lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. This, of all commandments (including thou shalt not kill, steal, etc..) is the most important- therefore breaking the greatest commandment deserves the greatest punishment.

Ok, moving on…
Ok I want to put this into perspective and if you still feel the same way, well, that’s ok.
Yes, the cost for sin is death. What is sin? Sin is a condition- sin is separation from God. That means that we can not get back to God because of sin, and God cannot accept us because of sin. The price for sin is death, which has a bigger meaning biblically then merely getting buried, it’s an eternal death in separation. Ok I know you all have heard that but I needed to quickly recap it for my point…

So, I would agree that Christianity is immoral if God sacrificed us for our sin- but He did not, instead, He came as Christ and sacrificed himself- He took care of it because we could not. That’s beyond moral, that’s downright merciful. God has left us with a choice now to accept that death or not- as if we are in prison and our bail has been paid, and we can leave anytime, but we can stay if we want to pay the penalty ourselves.

I know I know, this is only if you believe in all the garbage I belive. Well I am just helping you understand what Christianity believes, like I said.

Also, using the sin scare tactic to win converts is NOT a good way to keep the “industry of religion” going. Actually, it has been the greatest demise in my opinion. The church is overflowing with people who think that they must do there duty for God so they don’t burn in hell or whatever. God opened the door so that he could have a relationship with us, but waaayyy too many people miss that point when being preached the “turn or burn” message, a message that is immature and cheap. SO I guess in a way you are right, but converts won in this vein are going to be the kind of converts you guys like the best, easily shattered.

When does Christianity do this? Though, sadly it is true- but true of everyone, not just Christians. It seems that most of our culture can’t think for themselves, they just buy into the latest crap that the “experts” have to say, or they follow trends, or they buy what the commercials advertise, or they do what the preacher says without trying to see what God says. Many people on this site seem to say “open your minds! (just not to God), and then they give a detailed explanation of how you must think to be open minded, usually ending up being very closed minded. But yes I must admit you probably do win a lot more atheists by using the “we have an open mind” cover up.

Immune, no, you are right- but I must say that Christ handles those things in my life much better than I do. I at one time was suicidal, riddled with depression, and severely hateful, Christ removed those things from my life. You don’t have to believe me, but I hope that you can see why I am so loyal to him, He has so far given me an excuse not to be.

As for the bitter tone, I am sorry it came off that way. Yes I was being pretty sarcastic in my last post. I guess I was trying to shake things up a bit, and I succeeded. Christians are too often on the defense, I guess I would like to switch roles here because I think that allot of what you guys call “sincerely searching” and “free thought” and all that needs to be investigated, because all I see is a cleverly packaged version of conformity. I know that that is no way to make friends with an atheist, but I am dishing out a little harsh honesty in regards to what I experience here.

Please do not take the mockery personally, I don’t when you guys do it. My post was written in a tone that most of you guys use all the time against me when I post- We’re debating and a little sarcasm and mockery falls in there at times, I am not here because I love to bash atheists (in fact I’m much better at bashing the religious) I just want to have a good old fashioned exchange.

After rereading my post I do see how some things could be taken wrong, please just keep in mind that you can’t hear my voice you have no idea what tone I’m using, and if you think I’m being a beeyatch please tell me (which I’m sure you will).

Excreationist said, After quoting Matthew 25:31-34,41,46:
Please also recall the verse that says “God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” (Ezekiel 33:11) According to this description of God’s character, God is not gleefully banishing people to hell, I would say he is sadly waving goodbye to those of his children who decided they wanted to be separate from Him. But once again, you can disagree.

No I do not. I believe that the suffering is a result of separation from God. Like I quoted before about God taking no pleasure, He did not want hell, it Satan and the fallen angels, and the people with hardened hearts wanted hell. Living outside of what God had us designed for hurts- we were made to love God and to love others, that is the essence of life- apart from it we will suffer especially when all the temporary pleasures fade out.

WWSD, I love your name. what would Satan do? Probably invent stupid bracelets for youth groups to wear so that the name of Christ could be terribly misrepresented. I once was flipped off by a hand with a WWJD bracelet on it.
Anyway, to try to answer some of your post:
since when did evolution program things? Ok, you can believe that, but if you do then you have absolutely no right to criticize my belief in God. You are giving evolution, an unproven theory made by men, God like attributes. You are right, your answer is waaayyy over simplified. Morals are not always best for survival, rescuing a baby from a burning building would cost you your life but I would say it would be more moral than standing outside and listening to the baby scream until it burns to death (of course this isn’t very far from what abortion is and I guess allot of people think that’s moral).

Another problem is that Martin Luther King Jr. must have been immoral because he did not follow society’s designated moral code, in fact any moral reformer must have, under your definition, been immoral.

I agree about not trying to type a big long manifesto- morality is a huge debate in itself, but what I’ve found is this- Morality, like many things, can be given two foundations. God or the Incredible Nothing. You choose the Incredible Nothing, which, according to today’s brilliance is considered the only truly rational stance.

So basically, a person’s worth is based on the bad things versus the good things they’ve done. This all boils down to how they do or do not benefit society- am I catching on? So humans have no intrinsic value, only instrumental value?

If evolution created morality, why do we fail to stay in line with it? The things of nature seem brilliantly in harmony, yet morality we can not follow. Why didn’t evolution program us to be more moral? Why did evolution program us to destroy the earth, kill eachother, and all the other great things we do to destroy the earth? Is the Incredible Nothing Suicidal?

Evolutionists act as if we are all getting better, this is blatant rejection of the truth- it takes no rocket scientist to figure out that we are getting worse and worse and worse.

You are avoiding things that you have done that are not moral- or have you changed your idea of morality to fit you? Isn’t it convenient that we can all choose our own morality thanks to the Oh Wise Incredible Nothing? You have never done anything that you felt was wrong? Please be honest.

Ok I have no idea who Gandalf is, please enlighten me.

Many of you have said that God is immoral for sending people to hell. This implys that if he was moral, he would not send them to hell. That implies that that we deserve to go to heaven. I want to know why you feel that way. It is a relevant question and like I said, most of you would avoid it. Though I do thank you for all of your answers WWSD, you have been very honest and I have mucho respecto for that.

Why is my God different from my neighbor? Ok you know the answer to that. My neighbor has the opportunity to teach her child not to write on the walls. She is disciplining her child for doing the bad thing so that in the future he will not suffer. Imagine that this child continually writes on the walls even though the parent tells it time and time again that it is wrong. By the time this kid is a lil thug in LA he’s a tag master and he’s spray canning everything in sight, even though his mother has scolded him, grounded him, taken him to a counselor, and on and on… the kid ends up in jail, then prison for tagging the statue of liberties forehead. Did the mom send the kid to prison for writing on the walls? Did the police? No, justice did. God is like my neighbor if this is the case, and I guarantee that that neighbor wishes her son was not in prison.

I have so much more to say, with so little time, for now I will respond to Bree and hopefully get back to WWSD because I dig WWSD’s post.

I don’t hate you guys, I love it here. Sorry if I came off like I hate you guys. I hate the attitude taken by Sullster in his post and some others on this site- and I do think that that kind of talk is idiotic, but I do not think atheists are idiots, or whoever else is here- I am an idiot, and I think that most people are idiots. We are all in the same idiot boat but some seem too proud to admit it. Anyway, I am harsh and honest- but many of you are much more brutal than I am (mainly towards Christians). It’s you guys who hate me and think I’m an idiot, is it not? You may not outright say it but there’s plenty on this site to back up that assumption.

Well, I will talk more later, I need to sleep.
-EEf

Panta Pei

"It’s you guys who hate me and think I’m an idiot, is it not? You may not outright say it but there’s plenty on this site to back up that assumption."

We don't hate the human, just the christianity

excreationist

I didn't say that God enjoyed the task of separating the sheep from the goats.

He is banishing people to hell though... in Matthew 25:41, God says "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire..."

In Matthew 25:33 it says that God is separating the people, like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
I don't think all who receive eternal punishment want to be separated from God... the separation is forced.
e.g.
Matthew 7:21-23:
Why is hell referred to as being an eternal fire then? Also, what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? The rich man seemed to be in a burning place (hell) and could see Abraham and Lazarus (in heaven?).
Luke 16:19-31:
Do you know of any Bible verse that says that Satan wanted hell. It says in Matthew 25:41 that God prepared an eternal fire for the devil and his angels, but it doesn't say that the devil requested this. In Revelation 20:10 it says "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
I thought the devil was cunning. Are you seriously saying that the devil wanted to be tormented eternally in hell? If so, I thought he would walk in there rather than be thrown.

If the suffering is solely about being separated from God and nothing more, what do you think about this?
Revelation 14:9-11:

Laera

Not everyone thinks it's morally required for someone to give up their life in that situation, though many parents would have a hard time not doing just that. In fact, firemen (some of the bravest heroes we have) would even stop someone from entering a burning building even to save their own child. They might not even go in after it if the situation is deemed too dangerous. This is not immoral, as tragic as it is.

But I agree with you, morals are not always best for survival. My opinion is that morality is both individual and societal. I have my own set of morals and ethics, based on respect for others and desire for respect from others. However, I freely admit that others will have different opinions and different bases for their opinions.

I have no right to impose my sense of “right and wrong” on others, the same as they don’t have the right to impose theirs on me. How can individuals live together with so many differing opinions on right and wrong? Society dictates another set of morals (in the form of laws most often), ones that are imposed on the group as a whole. These are the morals that have either been agreed upon by the masses (democracy) or forced upon them by a small group who thinks they have it right (dictatorship or theocracy). The good thing about democracy is that the masses can then change their mind, and the moral groundwork adjusts to match. The idea behind it is that the whole is only as good as the sum of it's parts. Fortunately, most people hold a similar respect for human life and dignity that I do, even if some people ignore it to uphold god's messed up morality.

The mindset that called MLK jr. morally wrong has since been transformed by his actions and those of his contemporaries. Ah, the beauty of freedom. Had we been living in a theocracy, and the xians had all the power they think they deserve, they'd have probably convicted him of "crimes against god's order" or some such. Luckily, the self-admitted morally imperfect justice system, still protected his rights to preach his opinion.

In short, change good -- 2000+ yr.old rules followed blindly bad.