McFish

Ok, aliens visited me last night and informed me that I was omnipotent.

Unfortunately there were strings attached. If anyone ever becomes convinced that I actually have any unusual powers, creation explodes and the party's over. Also, I have to go around professing my infinite powers, all the while trying not to be too convincing.

Now that that's out of the way, on to the topic at hand.
1.
Let's stipulate that all of us non-believers are simply dishonest, disingenuous, blind, deaf, dumb, what have you. We simply don't believe the "everything necessary to convince anyone who is willing to look at the evidence that he does exist" evidence that surrounds us.
2.
Wouldn't providing slightly more evidence allow slightly more people to exercise their free will and choose to believe in god?
3.
Wouldn't a lot more evidence allow quite a few more of us non-believers into the party?
4.
Wouldn't a tremendous amount of additional evidence allow large numbers of people to shake free of satan's deceptions and follow the one true god?
5.
Wouldn't the audible voice of god answering anyone that called out to him allow nearly everyone to figure out what many religious people would call the most important truth of our lives?

So, we see that 1 (see above) is the case. Does this make god too lazy, too weak, or too disinterested to pursue 2-5 (see above)?

On a side note, let's sidestep free will and current reality for a moment.

Here's a timeline.

God - - - God + angels + heaven - - - creation - - - stuff happens - - - judgement - - - God + angels + heaven + billions of souls in eternal torment.

At the end of this timeline, what is the purpose of the existence of millions of tortured souls? They don't serve a purpose unless someone enjoys watching endless torture...who could that be?

spurly

God does not desire watching people in torment. It is his desire that everyone have a chance to repent and enter a love relationship with him. However, some people will choose not to do that.

For them, God will honor their choice. Love has to do that.

Kevin

Biff the unclean

Translation form Kevinese to English:
Everyone who disagrees with me will burn in Hell forever because I believe in Love damnit.

spurly

Biff,

I wish you lived close enough where we could stop and get a coke or a cup of coffee and take the time needed to really see where the other person is coming from. I think if we did that, you would know that you are taking my statements way out of context.

I do believe in love. I believe that the love of God gave birth to the universe. I believe that the love of Christ led to the point where he allowed his blood to be shed for us. And I believe that the one thing God wants from us more than anything else is to come back to that love relationship that was lost so long ago.

Kevin

winstonjen

Then why does he threaten us with hell? "Love me or BURN FOREVER because I love you" isn't love - it's coercion and blackmail. Why can't god send us somewhere other than heaven or hell after we die - where we can be happy even if we don't want to be with him?

Biff the unclean

Well Kevin, since Starbucks is out of the question, I'll be open about where I am coming from here. But you might not like it.
It is more than obvious that there are no Gods. There are just people claiming that their own hatreds are the virtues of their God.
The attitudes that you are projecting onto this fictional God I find to be repulsive. Repulsive because they are misanthropic. I find this view that all of mankind is somehow "fallen" to be disgusting. The idea that everyone deserves to be punished-eternally- is too hateful for me to bear. Top that with the fact that you have convinced yourself that this is some strange type of love and it becomes actually frightening.

I believe that the love of Christ led to the point where he allowed his blood to be shed for us. And I believe that the one thing God wants from us more than anything else is to come back to that love relationship that was lost so long ago
Look at that. I'm sure you felt rather good about yourself when you were writing it. But it's about blood debt and hatred of all humankind. It's about debasing yourself in intellectual slavery.

If I could have one wish for you it would be that you were saved…saved from Christianity.

Jack the Bodiless

Like others here, I am still waiting for you (or anyone else) to provide ANY Biblical basis for these assertions.

God denies free will. God suppresses free will. God punishes free will. This is clear from Genesis, and is a common theme throughout the Bible. God is fundamentally OPPOSED to free will.

Now prove me wrong.

Jamie_L

Okay, let's consider something about Free Will and the WTC.

Suppose the hijackers excercised their free will. They got hold of those planes. BUT, just as they were starting their flight paths into the buildings, God made the engines in the planes stop working. Both planes fell into the Hudson.

Would Free Will really have been interfered with? Five people would have still made a free choice to commit mass-murder, they just would not have succeeded. Free Will is about the choice, not successful completion of the intended outcome. God can stop the outcome without interfering with the choice.

Furthermore, thousands of people would have been able to continue exercising their free will if God had interfered. As it was, 19 people were able to exercise their free will, and thousands of people were denied that same freedom - for years to come. It seems like, in the balance, 9/11/01 was a bad day for the Free Will of the human race.

Why did a loving God value the free will of 19 mass-murderers more than the free will of thousands of people who were intent on doing nice things like making money for their families, having breakfast with friends, and going on vacations and field trips?

Free Will is a weak excuse.

Jamie

spurly

No. God does not deny free will or punish free will. What he condemns are people who use their free will to choose not to enter a relationship of love with him.

That's what the unpardonable sin is - rejection of the Holy Spirit as he tries over and over and over again to initiate a relationship between God and fallen man through the blood of Christ.

I don't understand how one can say that God is opposed to Free Will. He has given us that Free Will all through Scripture. He has given us the ability to choose.

Even Jesus says, "If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." There is a choice involved. How can one choose unless we have the free will to make a choice.

Kevin

spurly

Would God have been interferring with their free will if he had done what you said? Yes. You see they made a choice to kill and terrorize. What we saw on that day was the result of making that choice.

If God always took away the negative consequences from our decisions, wouldn't that be walking all over our free will. In essence, he would be saying, "You have the Free Will to do that. But I am not going to allow you to do it or to get hurt from it".

We live in a world where evil exists. That's why we need so much more of the love of God. A God who sent his Son to make peace between mankind and himself and to make peace between mankind themselves, if they would follow his ways.

Kevin