Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gsx1138 · 02-12-2003, 04:09 PM

I'll ask it again. How willing are these christians to let school kids cast a circle or call the four corners in the Wiccan way? I have a friend whose daughter wrote a paper on her beliefs like everyone else in class was supposed to do. After the teacher read the paper she had her daughter stand up in class just to tell her that her beliefs were "evil and satanic". Christians are not interested in freedom of religion because it goes against their own belief system.

Mageth · 02-12-2003, 04:18 PM

Good question, and point, gsx1138. And can you imagine the outcry from Christians if it is discovered that a group of Wiccan, or even atheist, teachers are meeting before school or after lunch, to discuss their religion or lack thereof, on school property?

GaryP · 02-12-2003, 05:27 PM

From AA News (American Atheists);

"The emphasis here, as usual, is on 'religious rights,'" said Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists. "Althought the DOE guidelines claim that government is not endorsing or promoting religion, vague and misleading language is sure to result in the types of abuses we've been seeing in public schools against those who do not wish to engage in religious activities."

Johnson pointed out that the DOE document specifically mentioned "see you at the pole" gatherings, where off campus groups encourage students, teachers and other officials to meet for pre-school sectarian prayer.

"They could hold something like this off school property, but they don't," said Johnson. "They want students to see the activity, and they want it associated as closely as possible with the school."

Johnson added that the guidelines don't go far enough in warning teachers or school administrators to refrain from certain activities that could convey an impression of official endorsement, or even favoritism.

"Will students believe that their grades may be affected by joining activities where a teacher is present, such as 'See You At The Pole' or a Bible study group? And what about indirect pressure from teachers who reward religious students, and even penalize those who don't participate?" asked Johnson.

To Subsribe to AA News;

http://us.f109.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Com...&view=a&head=b

In my city, a jr. hi principal has been praying with students on school grounds for 3 or 4 years. The system claims that she is doing it as a citizen, not in an official capacity.

I cannot understand how a staff member on school grounds is not acting in an official capacity. Does she put a sign around her neck that says, " I'm not your principal right now."?

Another example from old Lancaster High is the Athletic Director who helped organize the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. The guidelines at that time said that faculty could not organize, participate or encourage such activity.

They are only supposed to be at meetings as monitors. Can you imagine the possible pressure kid might feel if invited to a FCA meeting and the AD is the organizer? Could that kid be scared of losing playing time on Friday night?

{edited by Toto for line breaks in quote}

Toto · 02-12-2003, 06:15 PM

That link doesn't seem to work for me.

You can go to http://www.atheists.org/cgi-bin/promo1 and enter your email address to be added to the mailing list.

crazyfingers · 02-13-2003, 07:32 AM

Here is someting from Americans United .

Quote:

* snip *

Americans United Executive Director Barry W. Lynn said some of the new rules are based on a biased reading of the law intended to advance inappropriate religious activities in public schools.

�The Bush administration is clearly trying to push the envelope on behalf of prayer in public schools,� said AU�s Lynn. �Administration lawyers have selectively read case law to come to the conclusions they wanted.

�These guidelines assert that students can lead prayers or give sermons at some school functions,� Lynn continued. �The Supreme Court has never allowed that. If the administration tries to cut off federal funding to any school on the basis of these guidelines, that action will surely be challenged in court.�

* snip *

Americans United legal experts charge that sections of the guidelines are deliberately vague or have been skewed to imply that certain types of religious activities in public schools must be permitted when in fact courts have not been clear on some practices.

* snip *

Shake · 02-13-2003, 08:45 AM

To be fair, and believe me I'm glad that there is no mandated prayer in schools, you can't really bar student prayer. So long as the school doesn't mandate it, it's OK.

Quote:

The department makes clear that teachers cannot pray with students or attempt to shape their religious views.

"Public schools should not be hostile to the religious rights of their students and their families," Education Secretary Rod Paige said. "At the same time, school officials may not compel students to participate in prayer or other activities."

The guidance, released by the department late Friday, broadly follows the same direction provided by the Clinton administration and the courts. Prayer is generally allowed provided it happens outside the class and is initiated by students, not by school officials.

I realize there's a fine line that GWB is walking here and trying to "push the envelope" as someone put it. I dunno, I'd rather it be out of the schools altogether, but as long as fundies still send their kids to public schools, they'll keep trying to have prayers, Bible study, etc. on school grounds. I'm not saying it's right or that I agree with it, I just think it's still gonna happen.

I do like the quotes from AU!

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02-12-2003, 04:09 PM	#11
gsx1138 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Bremerton, Washington Posts: 379	I'll ask it again. How willing are these christians to let school kids cast a circle or call the four corners in the Wiccan way? I have a friend whose daughter wrote a paper on her beliefs like everyone else in class was supposed to do. After the teacher read the paper she had her daughter stand up in class just to tell her that her beliefs were "evil and satanic". Christians are not interested in freedom of religion because it goes against their own belief system.

02-12-2003, 04:18 PM	#12
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Good question, and point, gsx1138. And can you imagine the outcry from Christians if it is discovered that a group of Wiccan, or even atheist, teachers are meeting before school or after lunch, to discuss their religion or lack thereof, on school property?

02-12-2003, 05:27 PM	#13
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	From AA News (American Atheists); "The emphasis here, as usual, is on 'religious rights,'" said Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists. "Althought the DOE guidelines claim that government is not endorsing or promoting religion, vague and misleading language is sure to result in the types of abuses we've been seeing in public schools against those who do not wish to engage in religious activities." Johnson pointed out that the DOE document specifically mentioned "see you at the pole" gatherings, where off campus groups encourage students, teachers and other officials to meet for pre-school sectarian prayer. "They could hold something like this off school property, but they don't," said Johnson. "They want students to see the activity, and they want it associated as closely as possible with the school." Johnson added that the guidelines don't go far enough in warning teachers or school administrators to refrain from certain activities that could convey an impression of official endorsement, or even favoritism. "Will students believe that their grades may be affected by joining activities where a teacher is present, such as 'See You At The Pole' or a Bible study group? And what about indirect pressure from teachers who reward religious students, and even penalize those who don't participate?" asked Johnson. To Subsribe to AA News; http://us.f109.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Com...&view=a&head=b In my city, a jr. hi principal has been praying with students on school grounds for 3 or 4 years. The system claims that she is doing it as a citizen, not in an official capacity. I cannot understand how a staff member on school grounds is not acting in an official capacity. Does she put a sign around her neck that says, " I'm not your principal right now."? Another example from old Lancaster High is the Athletic Director who helped organize the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. The guidelines at that time said that faculty could not organize, participate or encourage such activity. They are only supposed to be at meetings as monitors. Can you imagine the possible pressure kid might feel if invited to a FCA meeting and the AD is the organizer? Could that kid be scared of losing playing time on Friday night? {edited by Toto for line breaks in quote}

02-12-2003, 06:15 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	That link doesn't seem to work for me. You can go to http://www.atheists.org/cgi-bin/promo1 and enter your email address to be added to the mailing list.

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