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Old 04-24-2003, 08:53 PM   #41
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Originally posted by mike_decock
Oh, violating free will is a taboo for God... unless He's busy hardening the Pharaoh's heart, that is .

-Mike...
The Pharaoh's heart was already hardened before God did anything. If the Pharaoh would have ever actually let the slaves go, God wouldn't have sent the plagues.
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Old 04-24-2003, 08:58 PM   #42
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The Pharaoh's heart was already hardened before God did anything. If the Pharaoh would have ever actually let the slaves go, God wouldn't have sent the plagues.
So why didn't God just let Pharaoh harden his heart all on his own? Why did God have to make certain that it stayed that way? Doesn't that violate Pharaoh's free will? Certainly, if God is omnipotent and omnicient, he would have seen that Pharaoh's heart was going to remain so anyway. Why did God have to go so far as to make certain that it did by interfering? Sounds to me like he ultimately wanted the excuse to send the plagues and kill the firstborn of Egypt. He made certain that it happened, regardless of the Pharaoh's free will.
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Old 04-24-2003, 09:08 PM   #43
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The Pharaoh's heart was already hardened before God did anything. If the Pharaoh would have ever actually let the slaves go, God wouldn't have sent the plagues.
No it wasn't. Read your Bible:

Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

The Pharaoh would have let the slaves go if God didn't initially and continually harden his heart

-Mike...
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Old 04-24-2003, 11:19 PM   #44
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Old 04-24-2003, 11:27 PM   #45
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If there is a God, He isn't worthy of being in my presence

Should a God read that, should that be taken as a request that God leave your presence?

Originally posted by mike_decock
Yup. He doesn't deserve to be near someone who actually cares about all people and would end all suffering if it was within their ability to do so.

-Mike...
I'll agree with that! But then there's a factor of time. Do you mean God doesn't deserve to be near a) someone who presently cares about all people or b) someone who has always cared about all people?

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Old 04-25-2003, 03:46 AM   #46
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So why didn't God just let Pharaoh harden his heart all on his own? Why did God have to make certain that it stayed that way?
Because god couldn't RESIST the TEMPTATION to massacre and torment the Egyptian people.
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Old 04-25-2003, 05:08 AM   #47
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Magus55:
... Who are you to question The Almighty Creator of the Universes actions?

Magus55 seems desperate to defend the honor of some alleged omnipotent, omniscient being that has never revealed Itself in person to those of us here. And when I mean reveal, I mean appear in the way that your computer's monitor appears before you.

Nope, God didn't invent sin itself. ...

Except that an omnipotent, omniscient being would be responsible for EVERYTHING that happens, by omission as well as by commission.
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Old 04-25-2003, 05:09 AM   #48
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And He did care. He cared enough to give them over a 100 year warning of the coming judgement. But only Noah and his family listened to the warning. The evil humans were fools and too prideful to listen to God. Not His fault.
Noah's Flood is pure fiction.

And let us not forget that an omnipotent, omniscient entity would be responsible for the occurrence of EVERYTHING that happens, by omission as well as by commisssion.
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Old 04-25-2003, 05:14 AM   #49
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And about Free Will,

F*** FREE WILL!!!

That free-will excuse is getting old. If you had a daughter, would you do nothing to stop some sicko from raping her on the ground that you don't want to interfere with his free will? SERIOUSLY.
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Old 04-25-2003, 05:38 AM   #50
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No it wasn't. Read your Bible:

Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

The Pharaoh would have let the slaves go if God didn't initially and continually harden his heart

-Mike...
Maybe you should have read chapter 3:


Exd 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

God knew the Pharaoh would never release the slaves, long before the Pharoah's heart was hardened.

And when it says God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, it doesn't mean going against his free will. It means turning the Pharoah over to his sin. The Pharaoh was against God and freeing the slaves from the start, God just allowing him to do what He wanted to do.
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