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Old 08-19-2002, 07:07 AM   #1
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Post I just figured out Kata Sarka

This can be considered as a continuation of The Kata sarka site where Iasion translated Kata Sarka/ en sarki to mean "physically" Kirby provided many texts and authors who have used kata sarka in their works, in addition to Iasion's list. What was clear was that the meaning of the word could change depending on context. So I decided to retreat to the Bible and examine Paul's usage. I have revised the meaning from CK.Barrett's and Earl Doherty's "in the sphere of the flesh" to mean a sublunar realm. I am yet to address kata pneuma which might contradict what I propose here.
I will appreciate help from Kirby and anyone else good in Greek for the Greek Translations.
In Romans 1:3
Quote:
peri tou uiou autou tou genomenou ek spermatoV dauid kata sarka
The Online Greek Bible
translates to :
Quote:
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh
Romans 1 :: King James Version (KJV)
This verse has been interpreted to mean that Jesus was born "physically". However, Pauls espousal of Jesus' Davinic/ Davidic descent is inconsistent with the idea that Jesus was born of the flesh by a virgin woman. It is also inconsistent with Pauls lack of direct mention of Mary, Joseph, Jesus' supposedly empty tomb and anything else that would be considered historical about Jesus. What then did Paul mean by "according to the flesh" or kata sarka in Greek?
Using the verses provided below, I argue that Paul meant "according to the spirit/promise" whenever he said KATA SARKA unlike according to the flesh is "in flesh". To Paul, at ones most unfaithful/skeptical, one was in the flesh/ of the flesh, but things/promises/prophecies were fulfilled "according to the flesh" but only for those who were NOT of the flesh.

Here he tells the Corinths that they are still of the flesh/infants in the spirit
1 Corinthians 3 :1-3
Quote:
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to (1) spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
King James Version (KJV).
1 Corinthians 3: 1-3
Quote:
1pauloV douloV cristou ihsou, klhtoV apostoloV, afwrismenoV eiV euaggelion qeou, 2o proephggeilato dia twn profhtwn autou en grafaiV agiaiV, 3peri tou uiou autou tou genomenou ek spermatoV dauid kata sarka,
The Online Greek Bible

Here he tells the Romans that those in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8: 9
Quote:
oi de en sarki onteV qew aresai ou dunantai. 9umeiV de ouk este en sarki alla en pneumati, eiper pneuma qeou oikei en umin. ei de tiV pneuma cristou ouk ecei, outoV ouk estin autou.
The Online Greek
Bible
Romans 8: 8-9
Quote:
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
King James Version (KJV)

Here, he tells Romans not to be after unspiritual (fleshly) things.
1 Romans 8: 12
Quote:
ara oun, adelfoi, ofeiletai esmen, ou th sarki tou kata sarka zhn: 13 ei gar kata sarka zhte mellete apoqnhskein, ei de pneumati taV praxeiV tou swmatoV qanatoute zhsesqe.
1 Romans 8: 12-13
Quote:
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Here he says Abraham had one child through faith (according to the flesh) while he had another in the flesh.
Galatians 4: 22
Quote:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh (ie Ishmael); but he of the freewoman was by promise [or according to the flesh] - ie Isaac.
NASB

Here he says we are only Abrahams descendants by faith (according to the flesh/ by promise - check other versions) NOT in flesh ie if we dont beleive it, then we are NOT able to be his descendants through the promise.
Galatians 4: 22
Quote:
22gegraptai gar oti abraam duo uiouV escen, ena ek thV paidiskhV kai ena ek thV eleuqeraV. 23all o men ek thV paidiskhV kata sarka gegennhtai, o de ek thV eleuqeraV di epaggeliaV.
Galatians 3: 29
Quote:
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise
Romans 4:1-2
Quote:
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 1: 1-2
Quote:
1ti oun eroumen eurhkenai abraam ton propatora hmwn kata sarka; 2ei gar abraam ex ergwn edikaiwqh, ecei kauchma: all ou proV qeon
.

The flesh, in Pauls meaning was like a stage/status in spiritual growth, while at the same time those out of it could see/experience prophecies being fulfilled in that stage. Those who were unspiritual were in the flesh. Those who were spiritual did things, got ideas, experienced things "according to the flesh". For example, if God promised that I will have a huge library, I can have it according to the flesh. Those of you who cannot see the huge library are (stuck) in the flesh.
Its more like astral projection - you have to get out of your body then your spirit will see things from a spiritial viewpoint (according to the flesh) but before that, you are in flesh and can only see things in flesh.

What do you guys think?

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]
Ted Hoffman is offline  
Old 08-19-2002, 02:17 PM   #2
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Could you make yourself a little more clear on your thesis?? I'm not sure I undestand what you mean...

Thanks,
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Old 08-19-2002, 03:26 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philosophus:
<strong>Could you make yourself a little more clear on your thesis?? I'm not sure I undestand what you mean...

Thanks,</strong>
Neither did the Catholics, apparently.
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Old 08-20-2002, 12:29 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philosophus:
<strong>Could you make yourself a little more clear on your thesis?? I'm not sure I undestand what you mean...

Thanks,</strong>
1. "according to" - refers to a viewpoint/ perspective or method - usually spiritual method. NOT reality. Like Abraham getting a kid without sleeping with his wife - he gets a kid according to the flesh. When you say "its impossible!", Paul responds, "he got a son according to the flesh"

2. "in the" - refers to a stage in spiritual growth.
"of the" - belonging to that stage. If one makes a woman pregnant, he gets a baby in the flesh through a means of the flesh/ after the flesh.

Thats as clear as I can get, thanks to Paul.
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