christ-on-a-stick

B.S.

What, people can't change?

christ-on-a-stick

And another thing: I think it's just as silly to call anyone who has ever been unfaithful a "cheater" as it would be to call anyone who ever lied "a liar", or anyone who has ever taken anything that didn't belong to them "a thief", etc., etc.... sure, somebody who habitually and repeatedly cheats on their partner can aptly be described as "a cheater".

But people make mistakes and people can and do change. Some don't but many do.

brighid

I am of the opinion that infidelity is wrong. One does not commit infidelity if a mutual agreement of outside relations has been made. If she is unhappy in her relationship, isn’t married to this gentleman, or doesn’t have children by him she is (IMO) choosing to stay with this individual for some reason advantageous to her. What that reason is can only be speculated upon, but most people do not stay in non-abusive (or even abusive relationships) that do not provide some sort of benefit.

Have you witnessed his drinking, or is this simply what she tells you?

The question I would ask myself if I were in a similar situation would be whether or not I wanted to be involved with someone who is capable of cheating on someone he/she has made a commitment to? I would wonder whether or not I would at some point be in the position to be lied to about his/her whereabouts, the truth of his/her feelings for me, etc., and whether or not I was willing to risk the emotional aftermath of such a plausible scenario?

I heard someone say that love is not a feeling; it is a behavior (or rather a series of related behaviors.) Are you reasonably sure in an objective sense that she is being truthful with you? Has she explained why she chooses to stay in this relationship with her live in lover? Why hasn’t she left him yet?

If you were in this man’s shoes how would you feel in the same situation?

Each of is responsible for your own behaviors. You can’t “get her out” of this live in relationship. She is not a child, or a possession and she is capable of making her own choices and truly is the only one who should get herself out of this situation. If, without a third party (you) could she commit this type of immoral act? No. You are a willing party to a deception that has a strong likelihood of emotionally harming another human being. Do you think it is okay to participate in a situation like this? Do you want to invest precious time and emotion into an individual who has shown herself capable of deception and infidelity?


Brighid

cjack

Then allow me to qualify that statement:

It has been my experience that a person who has cheated in the past is more likely to cheat again.

In this case, whether or not this woman can change remains to be seen, but the fact remains that she is cheating on her boyfriend RIGHT NOW.


Would you trust her at this point?

dshimel

I understand the great risk that I am in. She may never leave the safe relationship she currently has. I may never be able to have all that I want with her. I may end up heart broken at any time.

There are a great many things keeping her in the relationship. Almost all of their friends are mutual friends, meaning loss of not only the safe relationship, but a good number of freinds. What would her friends and family think of her if she dumps him then begins dating me right away? And it is a very safe relationship. The guy makes great money, and she needs the money (or mine) to live as she currently does. It is safe and comfortable, if not very happy. If he weren't an alcoholic or totally unaffectionate, he'd be a great catch. She wants to get married and have kids someday, doesn't want that with this guy, but can't bring herself to make the hard choice and leave.

The other great risk is if I do win her now. I'd like to think I'm a better catch then the other guy, and that she'd never wander again. However, brains tell me I'm probably wrong. There is a very old saying in relationhip counselling. If they will cheat with you, then they'll cheat on you.

I spent many hours and days and weeks thinking of all these things. I tried to do what my head told me to do. Run away why you still can. I tried and failed. I love her way to much to not do everything I can to get her.

I was more interested in the intellectual moral aspects of being "the other person".

Is it the same as facilitation of murder as Jamie_L puts it?

Is it just evolutionary survival of the fittest? If it is just survival of the fittest and that makes things okay, then where are the bounds of what is okay in that context?

Is living together and cheating, the same degree of Adultery as if you were just dating or if you were legally wed? Or, is cheating, cheating regardless of the nature of the relationship?

Is the 3rd person as guilty as the person in the relationship and cheating?

Thanks for the great responses so far.

dshimel

"I heard someone say that love is not a feeling; it is a behavior (or rather a series of related behaviors.) "

Bull crud. Love is a very complex series of neuro-chemical responses to stimuli provided by sensory input or thoughts about a person. Attraction grows to infatuation, dopamine and other neuro-chemicals flood you brain and get you high from the being with or just thinking about the person. Dopamine affects the same area of the brain as tabacco, nicotine, and ather addictive drugs. You become addicted to the person. You bond with them into a romantic relationship. In those first days, weeks and months, a lot of positive emotions and memories of the person are added to your long term memory.

Longer term, the high levels of dopamine are replaced with other drugs that continue to keep you bound to that person. This lasts until enough negative emotions and memories are added to you sub-conscious that instead of positive chemicals being released when you think of them, negative ones are released. At this point, you may still care about the person intellectually, but no longer have the chemical addiction to them. They are more like family than romantic partners. This is the infamous "love, but not in love with" phase.

Love is a feeling, just as much as fear is a feeling, happy is a feeling, sad is a feeling, interested is a feeling, atttracted is a feeling, like and dislike are feelings. They are all emotional responses to stimuli based on memories and desires.

Loren Pechtel

However, there is a big difference between infidelity at the end of a relationship and infidelity during a relationship.

The relationship she is in is obviously bad and it probably won't take much to end it. She's probably just scared of taking the big step. While it's not ideal I don't find the situation terribly wrong.

It's a very different kettle of fish than someone simply playing around in a basically solid relationship.

As for once a cheater--the situation he's referring to is cheating at the end of a relationship. If I were going to lose my wife anyway I don't think it would make that much difference if there was a bit of infidelity involved.

Godless Dave

People can change but they usually don't. But to me that's not the only issue here. Her relationship with BF is "wanting" but she not only is staying in it they are living together. She may have self-esteem problems that inhibit her from ending an unfulfilling relationship. She may like to have her cake and eat it too - stay with BF for security, play with other guys for fun. If it were me, I'd like to think I would say "I dig you, but you're living with another guy. If you decide to break it off with him look me up." If she's willing to leave BF without a guarantee of a new boyfriend that would say a lot about her integrity and her real feelings about their relationship. If she's only willing to leave BF to jump right to another guy you have to wonder if she needs men as security blankets. If she's not willing to leave BF at all you have to wonder about the nature of her feelings for you.

Full disclosure: I was in this situation when I was 20 and (naturally) did not react the way I advised above. I kept spending time with the girl in question. Touching each other while talking about how guilty we felt about it was very arousing in a twisted way. Ultimately though the sex was unsatisfying because she felt guilty about her boyfriend. She didn't leave him, she decided she loved him and had to stop seeing me (well until the next time her bra was chafing her and she wanted me to rub lotion on her breasts), and I was devastated. Here was this woman who was perfect for me but I lost her to her boyfriend. Actually she wasn't perfect for me, we didn't have much to talk about when we had our clothes on. Mostly we were both horny; I was tall and played guitar, and she had big hooters. Not much to build a relationship on but those feelings were strong I can tell you. She later left that guy but not for me.

To the moral question: yes I think the third party, the "other" man or woman, is also culpable. No, you didn't make an agreement with her boyfriend regarding their fidelity, but you can reasonable infer that he will be hurt by her infidelity.

Oxymoron

I know what you mean. However, my girlfriend cheated on me once. She is now my wife and she's been utterly faithful ever since. People 'cheat' for a host of reasons and it's unwise and unfair to create blanket rules about what you cannot know (ie the future).

My advice re the OP: I have no idea how commited the original relationship is; I have no idea how much the poster simply lusts for this woman or what her feelings are. It's not necessarily cheating by anyone. So I say go for it; take the consequences, good and bad.

dangin

If someone cheats on you, move on to someone else. We didn't evolve to be monogamous. Monogamy is a less successful evolutionary tactic. Which is why we practice serial monogamy at best.

My wife slept with a lot of people before me. I like her anyway. I fail to see why her sleeping with another one now, makes her any different.

Sure I could be raising another person's child, but that is unlikely. There is also the aspect of disease, which is also unlikely if you are A) smart, and B) selective.

And it would be hypocritical of me to complain because she has just as much right to mix her genes with multiple partners (a smart evolutionary move) as I do, and am.

Really people, I'm a little ashamed that you are so 19th century.