Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Appius · 04-01-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
7th,
John 16
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'

In the last verse Jesus (who is omnipotent and omniscient) says that he was not asked a question that he was clearly asked twice. Jesus's statement in John 16:5 is a total lie.

Sorry I am not 7thangel, but I thought I would reply.
John 16:5 does not read "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks or has asked, where are you going?"
When I began reading the part entitled "The Promise of the Holy Spirit" I did not read anywhere that the disciples asked him at that instant, "where are you going?" Anyway He brings up this up there because He knows that the disciples are sad he is leaving, yet He tells them it is best for them that he leaves.

Hawkingfan · 04-01-2003, 02:24 PM

I'll start a thread about this in b/c tomorrow, because the version I have right in front of me indeed reads as I quoted word for word, and is in context.

7thangel · 04-01-2003, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Appius
Sorry I am not 7thangel, but I thought I would reply.
John 16:5 does not read "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks or has asked, where are you going?"
When I began reading the part entitled "The Promise of the Holy Spirit" I did not read anywhere that the disciples asked him at that instant, "where are you going?" Anyway He brings up this up there because He knows that the disciples are sad he is leaving, yet He tells them it is best for them that he leaves.

Thanks a lot, Appius. There is nothing really I could notice except of the tense of the verb "asks." The question was new to me, and I might not have had noticed it.

God Bless,
7thangel

7thangel · 04-01-2003, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
So god does have, and exercise, the power to lie when it serves his purpose?

Isn't that generally why anyone would lie?

Man is man, and God is God. We cannot really make a comparison. God's purpose speaks of the whole humanity, man's is just about his limited knowledge.

Jobar · 04-01-2003, 06:44 PM

7th:
Omnipotence really speak of all the potence that exists in God's nature. It is not making all the things you can imagine.

So our imagination is more creative than God. I can imagine a god not limited by logic, who can create a stone to heavy for him to lift- then decide he can lift it. This same god can create square circles and glowing darkness.

The trouble with such a god is that words are completely useless to describe him. Take any concept at all- powerful, merciful, wise, whatever. You cannot say he is, or is not. You cannot say he is both. You cannot say he is neither.

7thangel · 04-01-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
7th:
Omnipotence really speak of all the potence that exists in God's nature. It is not making all the things you can imagine.

So our imagination is more creative than God. I can imagine a god not limited by logic, who can create a stone to heavy for him to lift- then decide he can lift it. This same god can create square circles and glowing darkness.

The trouble with such a god is that words are completely useless to describe him. Take any concept at all- powerful, merciful, wise, whatever. You cannot say he is, or is not. You cannot say he is both. You cannot say he is neither.

I am wondering, who are the theists that influenced your understanding of the concept of God. I am not anymore surprised why you left theism. And yet, I fail to understand that the very same faulty description of God is what you believe to be God. Worst, you are responding illogically which you abhor about theism. The question about the heavy rock is parallel to "can an omnipotent God make himself not omnipotent?" If you would say that this question is logical, then you must agree with the ontological argument of theists.

Amie · 04-01-2003, 09:59 PM

Excellent posts 7thAngel

Jobar · 04-02-2003, 05:49 AM

7th, my profile lists me as an atheist/pantheist.

I stand with Meister Eckhart, a medieval mystic, who said "Even if I say 'Thou! Oh, Thou!' I say too much."

All the gods who we try to talk about here are the ones I disbelieve in.

HRG · 04-02-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel

Two Gods cannot exists having the nature of almighty. One God cannot be almighty, because he is not mightier, but rather, equal to the other God. For two Gods two exist cannot be a reality.

"Almighty" means just "there is no one mightier". No contradiction.

DIfferent question: Can God destroy himself and in the same action create another omnipotent, but different being ?

Quote:

God cannot be a fool and a wise at the same time, right? The two natures cannot exist in one entity at the same time, in reality. So when I say God does not lack, it does not mean that God is a fool, and does not lack foolishness.

or ... "it does not mean that God is wise and does not lack wiseness". ?

Thus perfection is self-contradictory, because any being always must lack at least one polarity of a bipolar scale.

Actually, you did what I predicted: you arbitrarily picked out one polarity as positive, and said "Of course I was only talking about positive properties!". I suspect that's why you picked the wise/fool dichotomy.

But which polarity is positive in the following cases:

Negative charge vs. positive charge ?
Clockwise or counterclockwise rotation ?
Justified pride or humility ?
Unlimited courage or unlimited precaution ?

Whatever you pick, your God concept must lack the opposite polarity. IOW, perfection is an ill-defined concept.

Regards,
HRG.

wordsmyth · 04-02-2003, 08:21 AM

I just read through this thread in its entirety and though I don't want to sidetrack or hijack it, I wanted to comment on something.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
If god is omniscient, then it can't learn - it already knows everything. Not being omniscient, I have the ability to learn. Thus, I have a power that God doesn't possess![/B]

I don't think this is a good argument against god(s) alleged omnipotence.

I know how to drive a car. I cannot learn to drive a car becaue I already know how. This doesn't mean I lack the power to learn how to drive a car. It means I lack the need to learn to drive a car.

If god(s) were omnipotent, then it stands to reason it/they would have the power to learn. Omniscience wouldn't eliminate this power, just the need to use it.

Another example is... I move a jar of cookies from the kitchen table to the top of the refrigerator. I still have the power to move the jar of cookies to the top of the refrigerator, but now there is no need because they are already there.

Anyway, thats just my .02 cents.

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04-01-2003, 02:24 PM	#32
Hawkingfan Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,247	I'll start a thread about this in b/c tomorrow, because the version I have right in front of me indeed reads as I quoted word for word, and is in context.

04-01-2003, 06:44 PM	#35
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	7th: Omnipotence really speak of all the potence that exists in God's nature. It is not making all the things you can imagine. So our imagination is more creative than God. I can imagine a god not limited by logic, who can create a stone to heavy for him to lift- then decide he can lift it. This same god can create square circles and glowing darkness. The trouble with such a god is that words are completely useless to describe him. Take any concept at all- powerful, merciful, wise, whatever. You cannot say he is, or is not. You cannot say he is both. You cannot say he is neither.

04-01-2003, 09:59 PM	#37
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	Excellent posts 7thAngel

04-02-2003, 05:49 AM	#38
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	7th, my profile lists me as an atheist/pantheist. I stand with Meister Eckhart, a medieval mystic, who said "Even if I say 'Thou! Oh, Thou!' I say too much." All the gods who we try to talk about here are the ones I disbelieve in.

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