Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Xixax · 07-16-2003, 11:38 AM

I've looked through the recommended materials listing at the top of the forum, but I do have a rather specific question that I don't mind doing some reading about on my own.

I've read a great deal of articles that mention there were a great number of "miracle workers" in the first century that were contemporary to Jesus ( or at least contemporary to the time when Jesus is supposed to have existed ).

Is there any book or online article that deals with any of them that includes references? Thus far I just see the claim that they existed, and not any names with historical accounts showing what they were reported to have performed.

I want to focus my reading and research time on this for a while so that I can respond with good information to a thread I'm dealing with elsewhere at the moment.

My inclination is that populations were much more easily convinced during that time period that they were witnessing the "miraculous", and that many men were able to gain fame and popularity because of it. I also don't find 90 A.D. to be a very quick spread of fame about jesus in the first place, but is it?

Thanks in advance.

Peter Kirby · 07-16-2003, 01:37 PM

Jesus is attributed with more miracles than any other figure in antiquity. Second place among first century figures goes to Apollonius of Tyana. Asclepius had many shrines of healing dedicated to him throughout the Mediterranean. Among Palestinians, Hanina ben Dosa and Honi the Circle-Drawer are often cited. There are also miracles attributed to the apostles in the Acts, canonical and apocryphal.

best,
Peter Kirby

Soul Invictus · 07-16-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Jesus is attributed with more miracles than any other figure in antiquity. Second place among first century figures goes to Apollonius of Tyana. Asclepius had many shrines of healing dedicated to him throughout the Mediterranean. Among Palestinians, Hanina ben Dosa and Honi the Circle-Drawer are often cited. There are also miracles attributed to the apostles in the Acts, canonical and apocryphal.

best,
Peter Kirby

A while back, I started a thread on Apollonius of Tyana, which didn't get a lot of play. I'd heard that there were shrines to him. What is your opinion on the historicity of Apollonius? When were the shrines built with reference to the time period associated with them. I'm wondering are they made well after the supposed fact, such as with the gospels and Jesus. To your knowledge, is there any other tangible pieces regarding Apollonius. I'm assuming there are no works made by him (how convenient)

Regards,

Invictus

Peter Kirby · 07-16-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
A while back, I started a thread on Apollonius of Tyana, which didn't get a lot of play. I'd heard that there were shrines to him. What is your opinion on the historicity of Apollonius? When were the shrines built with reference to the time period associated with them. I'm wondering are they made well after the supposed fact, such as with the gospels and Jesus. To your knowledge, is there any other tangible pieces regarding Apollonius. I'm assuming there are no works made by him (how convenient)

Please read this article on evaluating the sources for Apollonius of Tyana.

best,
Peter Kirby

Xixax · 07-18-2003, 10:50 AM

Thanks to both of you for your help!

MortalWombat · 07-18-2003, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xixax
My inclination is that populations were much more easily convinced during that time period that they were witnessing the "miraculous", and that many men were able to gain fame and popularity because of it.

See Richard Carrier's essay Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire: a look into the world of the gospels, which deals with this.

Here's an excerpt from the conclusion:

Quote:

From all of this one thing should be apparent: the age of Jesus was not an age of critical reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an era filled with con artists, gullible believers, martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every variety. In light of this picture, the tales of the gospels do not seem remarkable at all. Even if they were false in every detail, there is no evidence that they would have been disbelieved or rejected as absurd by a people largely lacking in education or critical thinking skills. They had no newspapers, telephones, photographs, or public documents to consult to check a story. If they were not a witness, all they had was a man's word. And even if they were a witness, the tales above tell us that even then their skills of critical reflection were lacking. Certainly, this age did not lack keen and educated skeptics. Rather, the shouts of the credulous rabble overpowered their voice and seized the world from them, boldly leading them all into the darkness of a thousand years of chaos. Perhaps we should not repeat the same mistake. After all, the wise learn from history. The fool ignores it.

07-16-2003, 11:38 AM	#1
Xixax Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,101	Good reading list I've looked through the recommended materials listing at the top of the forum, but I do have a rather specific question that I don't mind doing some reading about on my own. I've read a great deal of articles that mention there were a great number of "miracle workers" in the first century that were contemporary to Jesus ( or at least contemporary to the time when Jesus is supposed to have existed ). Is there any book or online article that deals with any of them that includes references? Thus far I just see the claim that they existed, and not any names with historical accounts showing what they were reported to have performed. I want to focus my reading and research time on this for a while so that I can respond with good information to a thread I'm dealing with elsewhere at the moment. My inclination is that populations were much more easily convinced during that time period that they were witnessing the "miraculous", and that many men were able to gain fame and popularity because of it. I also don't find 90 A.D. to be a very quick spread of fame about jesus in the first place, but is it? Thanks in advance.

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07-16-2003, 01:37 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Jesus is attributed with more miracles than any other figure in antiquity. Second place among first century figures goes to Apollonius of Tyana. Asclepius had many shrines of healing dedicated to him throughout the Mediterranean. Among Palestinians, Hanina ben Dosa and Honi the Circle-Drawer are often cited. There are also miracles attributed to the apostles in the Acts, canonical and apocryphal. best, Peter Kirby

07-18-2003, 10:50 AM	#5
Xixax Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 2,101	Thanks to both of you for your help!

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