Doctor X

Rather easy when the TEXTS WERE WRITTEN [No shouting!--Ed.] far after the events they attempt to portray--as the anachronisms demonstrate, among other things.

Look, if you do not wish to question one of the basic tenets you use to support your conclusions, I cannot help you. Furthermore, no one here can take you seriously.

If you just wish to be one of the blindly faithful trying to convert posters . . . you have that right . . . but I predict--PROPHECY!--here you will not be successful.

If you wish to debate things then you need to open your mind to the evidence to the contrary.

--J.D.

River

I dont think the Shroud of Turin was cited as a fair example to Kaaba....but anyways...I do believe in independent examination of relics provided that the relics are not destroyed in the process.

Doctor X

Why not?

They were both strongly believed in.

They both had "evidence" to support the claim.

The only difference is that one has undergone study--without destroying it.

The other has not.

Oh . . . look! Another thread states that someone has been indicted over the ossary thing!!!

--J.D.

River

River

Well as a Muslim I believe in a composite of belief and reason. Most other religions only believe in " blind faith".


Faith comes into play where you (as a Muslim) have to believe that ArchAngel Gabriel visited Muhammad and gave him the Last Testament.

and Reason is backed by this classic Qur'anic verse

[Quran 17:36]" You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them."


Thus, if you study the pattern of my posts you will notice the answers are suspended between Faith and Reason. It is not like what Christian Evangelicals say which is purely based on " Faith" nor is it like the "Atheists" on the board that rely solely on evidence. I hope you understand my paradigm.

sorry, if I wasted your time



-River

Doctor X

Now do you see why scientists often state:

Another quote is: "Electrons don't lie, everyone else must have evidence."

Bare with me for a moment.

I had a mentor who taught a year-long course on biblical texts. It started filled to the brim with various people from orthodox Jews to fundamentalists with gold-edged Bibles.

Within about a week there was fifteen of us left. I like to think his claim, "Well, of course there is no tradition of monotheism in the Old Testament." wiped out ten students right there.

I asked him later if he ever has been approached by the teary-eyed coed who has just had roughtly fifteen years of religion and faith dashed. What does he tell her?

He responded that, yes, he frequently faces that problem and responds, "Do you have faith because of scripture or in spite of it?"

You see River [Cue Male Bonding Music.--Ed.] Why am I hearing Queen? Anyways, you can find value in Islam. You can live your life according to whatever interpretation you want of it . . . unless it involves droping a large rock on someone I happen to like.

If I could prove to you that "it is all made up"--that Mohammed was a yak-gelder in Dresden . . . that the Koran was based on purposeless moanings born from a bad hangover--INDEED . . . that the earliest known version of the Koran has just been discovered to ACTUALLY have been written on Official Dukes of Hazard stationary [Supplies limited.--Ed.]. . . .

. . . well . . .

. . . would you change your life?

I have asked that of Christians. Most said "no" they would not start killing people. Only one person ever admitted he might totally cast aside his morality--he was serious!

Would you stop valuing that which you value?

Thus [ZZzzzZZZZZzzzzZZZZZz--Ed.], if, I hope, the answer is "no," then you have only one problem left:

You just cannot expect others to share in your opinion.

What you are doing, frankly, is trying to prove people should follow your interpretation of your religion because it is true as if there is an objective criteria. This is akin to a Christian denouncing a Jew for "rejecting Christ."

All I have done [Is bore everyone.--Ed.] is asked you to question some of your ascertions--particularly when they are contradicted. The "message," I think, should be more important to you than the medium.

If I have not put you to sleep yet, I will ask this: please consult on of the texts. Now I know it is rather a low thing to play the "If you just read this 14,000 page tome you WOULD agree, stupid!" game. However, regarding, specifically, the patriarch, I would recommend some short books. To save space, you will find two of them Biblical Archaeology and The Bible Unearthed listed under the "recommended" sticky.

Pick one. I would prefer you pick both . . . indeed, I would add Thompson's The Mythic Past. . . .

They may not convince you of some of the things I have been [Blathering.--Ed.] claiming here, but at least you would be able to address the argument.

I see a little silouetto of a man
Scaramouche! Scaramouche!
Will you do the fandango?!

--J.D.

River

-Doctor X

I am no stranger to archaeology. In fact back in my undergraduate years I had to take a few archaeology courses to fulfill my anthropology major's requirements. I used to also be a paleontology nut, when I was younger. Well, thank you for your recommendations. I will try to get myself a hold of those books. I really appreciate it.


Peace

River

Doctor X

That is all I can ask. Again, Thompson The Mythic Past is very readable, but a lot longer. Some may disagree with the authors of Bible Unearthed because they rather assume a David and Solomon exist--though the concede they were nothing like the biblical accounts and their evidence is rather thin.

---J.D.

TheDiddleyMan

So you have to go by faith that the Quran was revealed by Allah, but you are told by the Quran not to trust anything unless you have verified it for yourself - in other words, you are told not to have faith, but knowledge?

thanks

Kevin

River

Faith is verified by a concept called " Imaan"-------where a Prophet or Revelation must meet certain standards of Truth and Righteousness.

Knowledge is also an important component of Islam

"He has taught you that which [heretofore] you knew not"
(Qur'an: Translation of the meaning, 2:239)


"Seek knowledge even as far as China." [ Hadiths/ Sayings of Prophet Muhammad"]



-River