High Ideologue

That is excellent news. But I wonder whether you will first say you are through and then try to work your way back into a dialogue again like Daggah did.

Daggah

Hey, what can I say. I can't sit back and idly let someone spout BS.

Ask Radorth. He knows this very well.

High Ideologue

As a Metaphysical Naturalist, you have no absolute proof for the myth that the natural world is all that there is. To suggest that the myth that the natural world is all that there is is truth implies that you possess omnipotent abilities to gather evidence, make valid logical deductive inferences, and draw conclusions. In essence, your claims to know that the myth that the natural world is all that there is is true implies that you are an arrogant know it all. I am not impressed by your claims that Metaphysical Naturalism is the most logical, honest, and parsimonious interpretations of human experience. This statement merely suggests that amongst Metaphysical Naturalists it is fashionable to choose to believe that the myth that the natural world is all that there is is truth. Fashions change.

Reality is all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you. Ideology fashions reality. In other words, Metaphysical Naturalists are taking a finite understanding of truth and knowledge based on discovery combining this with the myth that the natural world is all that there is and creating an ideology to fashion reality within their minds.

I do not admit to any such thing. A troll is someone who utters a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames. I am asking an honest serious question of Metaphysical Naturalists. In reply I am receiving baseless accusations. If this is the best that Metaphysical Naturalists can come up with in response to my question then it is a sad commentary on communities of faithful believers self organizing around Metaphysical Naturalism.

Daggah

As a Metaphysical Naturalist, you have no absolute proof for the myth that the natural world is all that there is.

As a human being he has no absolute proof of ANYTHING. Should he have absolute proof for metaphysical naturalism?

To suggest that the myth that the natural world is all that there is is truth implies that you possess omnipotent abilities to gather evidence, make valid logical deductive inferences, and draw conclusions.

I don't recall him suggesting that. So this is a straw man.

In essence, your claims to know that the myth that the natural world is all that there is is true implies that you are an arrogant know it all.

Again, straw man.

I am not impressed by your claims that Metaphysical Naturalism is the most logical, honest, and parsimonious interpretations of human experience.

And we aren't impressed with your claims regarding the existence of the supernatural. Every time we charge you with presenting evidence of the supernatural world you chicken out. It remains so that evidence for the supernatural is lacking. Therefore, for us, naturalism is the most logical and honest answer, and will be until demonstrated otherwise with logic and/or evidence. You and other theists have failed over and over again in demonstrating such logic and/or evidence.

This statement merely suggests that amongst Metaphysical Naturalists it is fashionable to choose to believe that the myth that the natural world is all that there is is truth. Fashions change.

Looks like we have another victim of 'itosis.' What is the 'this statement' being referred to?

Vorkosigan

If this is the best that Metaphysical Naturalists can come up with in response to my question then it is a sad commentary on communities of faithful believers self organizing around Metaphysical Naturalism.

Evidence and argument for the supernatural, please. And do not say "the universe." That is not an argument for anything. Please give us data arrayed in models or logical frameworks.

Or better yet, stop trolling.

Bree

[moderator hat]

Please try and keep this thread on topic. No more name-calling - including "I think you're a troll" and "your opinion is not valid" et cetera. If you have personal gripes with someone, please take it to PM.

[/moderator hat]

High Ideologue

What if this extreme myth and fantasy by definition is designed not to be demonstrable? You could never prove that it did or did not exist. That is the point of a myth and fantasy: it is a positive possibility that it might exist. It is also positive possibility that it might not exist. The myth and fantasy that the natural world is all there is is also a positive possibility that might or might not represent actuality. There are a number, diversity and variety of ways of ornamenting a model of self and world with myth and fantasy based mystery. I always respect that right of others to make up their minds about self and world: That means in my mind I take a love of healthy, agnostic, positivistic, nationalistic, spiritization to its' logical extreme to imagine a being whose quantity of energy is infinite, quality of space is divine, longevity of time is eternal, denominator of continuum is one. This infinite divine eternal one self organizes into the infinite four: The Big I.F. . These are the infinite seed an infinite fractal infernal one; the infinite body an alienation fractal infernal temporal infinite in number and denominator of continuum; an infinite soul an alienation divine eternal infinite in number and denominator of continuum; and infinite spirit an infinite divine eternal one. Infinite body consists of infinite number diversity and variety of large universes of the correct kind to support living infernal feeding entities or L.U.C.K.S.L.I.F.E. These are all created from within infinite spirit an infinite divine eternal one. Now I am all in favor of love of healthy, agnostic, positivistic, nationalistic spiritization and I am against the hatred of heterofascist, atheistic, perfectionistic, nationalistic negativism. But I also won't allow the hatred of heterofascist, atheistic, perfectionistic, nationalistic negativism into admission to the House of Ideology H.I. If it is detected then it will have to take root elsewhere. It does exist in one form and that is in the seed bodies' unconscious drive to create and survive. These drives are manifest in the ideologies used like tools by the plutocratic few to bend the wills of the many of our nations to submit to their way of fashioning reality. Only their way of ornamenting the myth and fantasy of an infinite divine eterna one is acceptable as good with all others condemned as evil and their way generally suggests communities of faithful believers must out work, out number and out fight the rest of the planet in order for their soul to be admitted to their heaven and be with their good one after their evil one is vanquished in armageddon. So they go on to fight evil: Everyone who doesn't agree with their way of ornamenting a model of self and world with myth is condemned as evil in the minds of fanatics. I believe in fighting evil too, with the law of state and with the spirit of mind infinite four reality. Communities of faithful believers lead by ideological authorities patronized by the plutocratic few proclaim that they know their sacred text is one true divine exclusive revelation of the discovery, word, will and laws of their good one at battle with their evil one here on Earth. I study laws of cause and effect that govern the matter and energy of the known universe and discover a standard of conduct in my mind best produces health in my seed body. My standard of conduct is only as good as information I receive, and I in the past I have fallen prey to predators to said they loved so that they could get close enough to hurt me because they really hated me. As I continue to grow and learn from existence and experience I converge upon the best possible standard of conduct for the seed body that produces the most powerful physiological responses of health possible. As I continue to grow and learn from my feelings and my heart I converge upon the best possible standard on conduct that best produces the most powerful emotional responses of happiness imaginable: complete spiritual liberation that minimizes risk of emotive liability by not including a standard of conduct that has anything to do with rewards for doing a, b, and c, and punishment for doing x, y, and z. In this way we maximize potential reward of glad happiness, and minimize potential punishment of sad sorrow, mad fear, and bad anger in our minds. When it is that our divine eternal souls pass from their present form and the totality is revealed undeniably then in my mind these souls will be enabled to choose in the divine love and eternal freedom conferred upon all souls by an infinite spirit an infinite divine eternal one to take another a form of seed body in another point in energy, space and time and live again to feed off of the test of success and failure, game of survival and sacrifice, conflict of predator and prey and freedom to make up mind about self and world in what way that soul choose for that particular seed body. I combine the standard of conduct based on universal, state and natural laws of cause and effect that in my mind determines the fate and destiny of my seed body with my standard of conduct based on spiritual laws of love and freedom that in my mind determines the fate and destiny of my soul spirit. I combine these two standards to form one comprehensive standard of conduct based on both the drive of the seed body to create and survive and the drive of the soul spirit to perfect and revive. In my mind this comprehensive standard of conduct best produces the most powerful emotional responses of health possible and the most powerful physiological responses of happiness imaginable. Now I told you I believe in an infinite divine eternal one and I believe in the infinite four reality. Now I think about this earlier or maybe later you asked me about the pink fairies swirling around me healing my body. I thank you for that imagary that was beautiful. Maybe you don't care what I think about your imagery. I do enjoy your imagery. Supposing their we're an infinite number, diversity, and variety of large universes of the correct kind to support living infernal feasting entities and suppose that it possible some were undetectable to our sensory perceptions. Some might even over lapped our own universe. Undetected because their large universe of a correct kind to support living infernal feeding entities has a different combination and permutation of energy, space and time being within these universe maybe even they can see me touch me hold me heal me but I might be able to see them. So I just think of this as another way of ornamenting a model of self and world with a myth of an infinite divine eternal one that is a positive possibility and I thank you for bringing it up.

That is your opinion and I respect your freedom to express it. I also question if you are being emotionally honest with yourself and me. What could be better than an infinite number of large universes of the correct kind to support living infernal feeding entities. Because these are all create and selected to become the infinite seed and infinite body of an infinite soul and an infinite spirit. An infinite abundance of love and free of divinity eternally is given to each soul to enjoy an infinite diversity and variety of forms and world. A Matrix in Infinite space containing an infinite number of large universes of the correct kind to support living infernal feasting entities. Each universe having unique forms and contents of self and world. Divine eternal soul spirits enjoy the divine eternal entertainment derived from selected forms the unconscious mind of the seed body those combination and permutations of energy, space and time that will manifest and the conscious mind. Intellectual dishonesty usually goes hand in hand with emotional dishonestly and desperately trying but not knowing how to win an arguement at any cost to integrety. Intellect honesty usually goes hand in hand with emotional honesty and winning an arguement and keeping ones integrity. Are you really telling me the when you are involved the idea disease and death hanging over your life like a Sword of Damocles fills your heart with happiness? Why not choose to believe in a infinite number, variety, and diversity of forms in infinite number, variety, and diversity of world each its' own large universe of the correct kind to support living infernal feasting entities. Why not believe in a infinite body of universes where in an infinite number of divine eternal souls are free in the infinite abundance of love of an infinite spirit to enjoy a Never Ending Story of a drama of life and death, game of survival and sacrifice and conflict of predatory and prey

I think you are lumping all theists into the same catagory as bad and that's too bad because that's prejudice based on the mistaken belief that all faiths are intolerant on any other. That simply isn't a true fact.

Well then why do you include this myth that the natural world is all that there is in your world view. It should also be impossible for you to choose to include this myth into your beliefs because their plenty of other possible more then enough. Why not ornament a model of self and world with an extreme myth about an infinite divine eternal one who creates all from within in infinite abundance and who frees divine eternal souls to experience an infinite number, diversity, and variety of life forms in an infinite number, diversity and variety of worlds. Free to make up their minds about self and world our divine eternal souls enjoy the entertainment found in the drama of life and death, game of survival and sacrifice and test of success and failure. If you are an atheist then why is that yours is the best approach to making up your mind about self and world and how to ornament a model of self and world with myth? Is this because of Occam's Razor: a scientific condition that dictates myth should be cut away from truth so that scientists can most efficiently and effective devote their energy, space and time to discovering scientifically reproducible truth? Are you a scientists or are you a student of life or both or neither? Now of the spiritizers of the House of Ideology know that their particular way of ornamenting a model of self and world in their mind with a myth and fantasy about the infinite divine eternal one is permitted to operate within the association. However we exclude ornamentations that favor the hatred of heterofascist of atheistic, perfectionistic, nationalistic, negativism in both varieties. They should be able to make their expression their ideas and make their arguments known publically in the market of ideas like any other ideological tradition. However these will not be permitted to set up shop in the House of Ideology because the single minded belief that their way of ornamenting a model of self and world is good and all others are evil or if not that fanatically salvagable of even tolerable and sometimes intolerable variations of how ideology fashions reality within the mind. You believe in the conception, birth, life, disease, and death of the seed body of self. As disease and death approach sad disappointment, mad fear, and bad anger might set in. I can't do anything with myth to eliminate these emotive forces, but I can offer a way of balancing these emotive forces with emotive of glad happiness about an extreme infinite being and infinite divine eternal one. Why must and might it be extreme, because myth ornamenting our model of self and world is only an imagined possibility. We don't know the possible way of ornamenting a model of self and world with myth is the right one. Why not take a love of healthy, agnostic, positivistic, nationalistic, spiritization of a model of self and world to its' logical extreme and converge upon ornamentation of a model of self and world by extreme myth about an infinite divine eternal one that brings the most powerful emotive forces of joy, faith, and love imaginable to life in your mind? Tolerate other world views as along as these are positive possibilities and are not advocating actions be taken in hatred against the seed bodies of communities of faithful believers self organizing around the leadership, teachings, and entertainment of the House of Ideology Manifesto.

High Ideologue

Elegant? Elegant is defined an adjective that describe nouns as characterized by or exhibiting refined, tasteful beauty of manner, form, or style. Beauty is the eye of the beholder. Your use of the word elegant to describe Metaphysical Naturalism leads me to believe that fashion has a lot to do with the reasons Metaphysical Naturalists ornament a model of self and world with the myth that the natural world is all that there is. I believe the predatory plutocratic few are heavily promoting this fashion amongst the many of our nations. The effect of this fashion has been to create in the minds of the many a model of self and world that produces sad sorrow, mad fear, and bad anger as impending disease and death approach. Devotion of energy, space and time to only ideas about lower self, lower world and lower future leads to lower self esteem and thereby makes the many of our nations easier prey.

What is so great about being parsimonious? Metaphysical Naturalists are building a foundation of truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery that informs them of the discovery of their own impending disease and death. These negative ideas about the fate and destiny of the seed body of self produce powerful emotional responses of sad sorrow, mad fear, and bad anger and this in turn produces physical stress. By being parsimonious about ornamenting a model of self and world with myth Metaphysical Naturalists are negating any possibility of a supernatural force that might balance the sad sorrow, mad fear, and bad anger caused by the discovery of the impending disease and death of the seed body of self with the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable caused by the idea of the divine immunity and eternal life of the soul spirit of self and infinite world. Metaphysical Naturalists are marrying the extremely negative idea of the discovery of the impending disease and death of the seed body with a negative myth that the natural is all that there is to create a negativistic model of self and world. Why not be ecstatic about your divine eternal soul spirit of self and infinite world and be down to earth about the risks of liability and potential benefits you may derive from knowledge, understanding, application, analysis, creation, and evaluation of universal, state and natural laws of cause and effect governing the fate and destiny of your seed body?

Intellectual honesty is acknowledging that their are a number, diversity and variety of valid ways of ornamenting a model of self and world with myth. Only our creative abilities and powers of imagination limit the number, diversity and variety of valid ways of ornamenting a model of self and world with myth. Metaphysical Naturalists choose their negativistic way of ornamenting their models of self and world with myth. Metaphysical Naturalists tell us their choose of myth and desire to be parsimonious is made according to the elegance of the fashion of the day in a Global Culture dominated by the predatory plutocratic few.

Daggah

The same is true for the invisible pink cats orbiting Jupiter. And guess what? There's no point in believing in them, either! Go read Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" and get back to me.

As usual, you're not quite there.

Faith (as in, complete trust in something without basis or reason) is an undesirable trait. This is true whether we're talking about theism or faith in politicians. ALL of the war-related bloodshed in the history of humankind can be laid at the feet of faith in one way or another.

High Ideologue

The myth of invisible pink cats orbiting Jupiter is not on it's own extreme enough to balance the extreme negativity of emotions caused by discovery of impending disease and death of the seed body. So there is no point in believing in invisible pink cats orbiting Jupiter if the reason one is choosing to believe in a myth is in order to enjoy the mental, emotional and physiological benefits of a balance mind. You have described for me these mythical creations as being interested in the Planet Jupiter. Therefore these mythical invisible pink cats that you suggest might be orbiting Jupiter are irrelevant to the fate and destiny the fractal infernal temporal seed body and are irrelevant to the fate and destiny of the divine eternal soul spirit of finite self and infinite world.

However, I do not deny you the possibility that these mythical invisible pink cats orbiting Jupiter might exist. If an infinite divine eternal one self-organizes into an Infinite Four: Infinite Seed, Infinite Body, Infinite Soul and Infinite Spirit and the Infinite Body is made up of an infinite number, diversity and variety of large universes of the correct kind to support living infernal feeding entities, then it is probably true that at least one large universe of the correct kind to support the life of invisible pink cats. If that particular large universe of the correct kind to support the life of invisible pink cats is in someway super imposed over our own universe and these invisible pink cats see our universe as a ghost world then it is possible these mythical invisible pink cats might see Jupiter and be circling in orbit around Jupiter.

You are the one who proports to be able to articulate about the arguments Metaphysical Naturalists make to justify their ornamentation of a model of self and world with the myth that the natural world is all that there is. As such, your are the one who should read Sagan's 'The Demon-Haunted World' and get back to me when you are able and willing to articulate about the arguments Metaphysical Naturalists make to justify their ornamentation of a model of self and world with the myth that the natural world is all that there is.

That comment could be interpreted as an ad hominem attack on me.

This statement of yours that 'faith is an undesirable trait' is a lie based on ignorance of my ideas and my arguments and denial that Metaphysical Naturalists ornament a model of self and world with the myth that the natural world is all that there is.

Alright let us take this statement of yours that faith is an undesireable trait as one of those broad generalizations you have shown your self prone to making from time to time. If faith is an undesirable trait then is absence of faith or fear a desirable trait in your mind? In accord with your statement that faith is an undesirable trait, do you reject all teachers, all ideological authorities, all ideas and arguments that require you to accept some ideas and arguments based on faith? If so then why haven't you rejected the ideas and arguments of Metaphysical Naturalists? Metaphysical Naturalists ornament a model of self and world with the myth that the natural world is all that there is. This myth that the natural world is all that there is is one of a number, diversity and variety of valid positive possible myths only limited by our creative abilities and powers imagination. Therefore, in order for Metaphysical Naturalists to accept the myth that the natural world is all there is requires an act of faith on their part that this particular myth and not some other myth that includes supernatural elements is true.

You have made statements similar to the one above before and I have already pointed out the logical flaws in your argument. We are life forms in a self-consuming biosphere divided by a conflict of predator and prey. Life forms, states and ideological traditions are all playing a game of survival and sacrifice within our global culture. There is a symbiotic relationship between survival of states, survival of ideological traditions, and survival of individuals. Those ideological traditions that were capable of motivating individuals of a state to out work, out fight and out number competing cultures have come to dominate much of our global culture. That is why so many of these great religious traditions include a standard of conduct that directs members of communities of faithful believers work all the day, be fruitful and multiply, and fight evil. These great religious traditions have evolved towards being tools useful to states in motivating communities of faithful believers to out work, out fight, and out number the rest of the world. The state sustains belief just as belief sustains the state. I doubt if all religious discourse was eliminated from our global culture that the conflict of predator and prey would cease to divide our self-consuming biosphere. Laying all of this conflict and blood shed at the feet of faith seems to me wrong.

The important point here is: My faith is one of complete spiritual liberation. In accord with my faith, I think, believe and expect that it is true that there are no standards of conduct imposed by the spirit on the souls. That means there are no commands to do a, b, and c and no commands not to do x, y, and z. To me any standard of conduct that commands members of communities of faithful believers to do a, b, and c, and not to do x, y, and z belittles the infinite abundance of love the infinite divine eternal one has for my soul and suggests limitation in a limitless being. In accord with my faith in complete spiritual liberation, I think, believe and expect that there is no mythical system for reward and punishment. There are no laws of god except those spiritual laws of love that free our divine eternal souls to enjoy a never ending story. So what you are doing above is lumping my ideas, not to mention Taoism together with aggressive ideological traditions useful to states in motivating communities of faithful believers to out work, out fight and out number the rest of the world. You are misrepresenting my ideas and arguments, setting up your straw man, knocking it down, and failing to make any sort of logically valid counterargument to the ideas I have put forth with care and the arguments I have made with premises that could be true, logically valid inductive inferences and positive possible conclusions.