IvanK

Remember the rationale given by the Virginia district court in upholding the state's anti-miscigenation laws as late as the early 1960s, that God had made the different races and, in his wisdom, separated them; it was man's sin that resulted in their coming in contact and the role of the law and morality to keep them separate nevertheless.

Of course since then Christians have been falling over themselves to embrace MLK's "moral" vision and hail him as a "reformer," never mind how many devout believers argued and fought against him every step of the way.

I'm sure many Christians must believe woodchuck will surely be going to Hell because he doesn't believe in it as a place of eternal, fiery punishment adminstered by God Almighty. Lives have been lost over less drastic differences in Christian doctrine.

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

Echo

I still don't understand this idea about "choosing" to go to Hell by rejecting God and following Satan. After all, I don't believe in the existence of Satan. If not believing in God prevents me from entering Heaven, then why won't not believing in Satan prevent me from entering Hell?

The answer seems to be that we are choosing to follow Satan whether we know it or not and regardless of whether we even believe the creature exists.

But if I can choose to follow Satan without even believing he exists then why can't I choose God without even believing he exists? What's to prevent me from winding up in Heaven one day and hearing the angels say "well, you see, you really chose to follow God, you just didn't know it."

The whole system seems pretty darned disorganized.

IvanK

According to Dominus Iesus, the Catholic Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith document widely panned a couple years back for pointing out that Catholics do indeed believe theirs is the One True Religion, nothing. There is nothing to stop God, through a mysterious act of divine grace, from admitting non-Catholics into His Heaven. However, since only Roman Catholicism contains everything that is true about God, Heaven, etc., non-Catholics remain in grave peril of Hell and its punishments.

Short version: "it's a mystery."

NOGO

Hi Woodchuck,
Please don't mind if I rub your nose in it.
Point 1.
Never admit that you were wrong! Right Woodchuck?
This, however, is not what is most important here. You were not willing to believe that YOUR GOD created such a hell. So you agreed with us. You agreed that no self respecting God would create such a place.

You agreed for only a moment. As soon as you discovered that the Bible does say that God created such a place and for His "children" you went searching for a way out.

Woodchuck, will you live all your life with such intellectual dishonesty.

Point 2.
Pitting scripture agaisnt scripture.
“God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.”

versus

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...."

...and you decide that one can undo what the other says.

Point 3
"I would say he is sadly waving goodbye to those of his children who decided they wanted to be separate from Him."

Where do you read this Woodchuck ...

It says
"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...."

This does not sound like a decision that the "children" took. "Depart" sounds like an order to me.

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

woodchuck

Wow you really got me on that one NOGO
if only I could evolve as fast and you and not be such a blithering idiot. Of course I've read those verses and no they did not prove me wrong or whatever you say- I do believe that Hell is a terrible place, just as bead as the scriptures say, but I believe it is not God that makes it that way, it is those who go. Anyway, I don't have time right now and man I'd love to get into one more ongoing exchange with you Nog but for cryin' out loud we got pleanty goin as it is. Well peace out gang.
-EEf

NOGO

Sorry Woodchuck. I made a mistake. I had no reason to believe that you were not aware of the verses in question. However, the gist of my post is unchanged.

Punishment is not just suffering as you say.
Punishment is more like torture than suffering.

Suffering does not required an external agent as you say but punishment does just like torture.

Depart is an order and is nothing like "sorry you don't want to come with us" as you claim.

So my point again.
You cannot conceive of a God who will PUNISH (if you don't like the word torture) people for eternity just because they did not love Him.

But that is the kind of God the early Christians believed in and wrote about in the Gospels.

Woodchuck, you are now one step closer to my point of view. I have abandoned the biblical God for this and various other problems which I am sure we will enventually discuss.

Take care.

[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Panta Pei

"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson

I just hope the replacement meme has a whole lot more elves in it

sullster

I enjoyed your quote from Jefferson and have read other similar ones from him.
I almost burst out laughing years ago when one of my fundy in-laws said that Jefferson was a born-again christian. Moron.