Freethought & Rationalism Archive

07-20-2003, 03:01 PM

You guys know of any excellent arguments against the trinity?

The best that i have come across is this one : God, it is said, is composed of X, Y and Z - they have the
same essence but different particulars which make them distinct. Now Scotus
would ask (since X, Y and Z 'make up' God as a necessary being) which of
the three is the reason that the whole (X + Y + Z) is necessary? Let us now
suppose that X is the reason why the whole is necessary. This is makes Y and
Z impotent (more importantly, it makes them contingent, and thus they cannot
be eternal). What if it is suggested that the necessary being = X + Y + Z?
Now, althought this particular exegesis of mine is debatable, it seems to me
that what Scotus is saying here is that such as being would be necessary
"thrice over" - implicit here is the contention that if X, Y and Z were
contingent entities, then how can contingent + contingent + contingent =
non-contingent? - since, if all three were necessary beings *on their own*,
they would have no need for the other two. If X was a necessary being, say,
it would necessarily exclude Y and Z (necessity is a sufficient condition
for excluding Y and Z). The eternity of three necessary beings causes more
problems because, should such a thing be the cause, they would be three
*distinct* beings - i.e. the scenario would be tritheistic

mark9950 · 07-20-2003, 03:11 PM

God is not a trinity he is a family composed of two members.

Elohim(plural) refers to two not three because the holy spirit is not a third
person.

Elowah is the singular of elohim which is not used to describe the God.

The real truth is that xtians will alway label their polytheistic god in a monothesic way.

The truth is god is a family(polytheistic)

SignOfTheCross · 07-20-2003, 08:39 PM

Such an arguement against the Trinity is impossible because we do not fully understand it. The best you can do is argue on hypotheticals, but if you wish to make a case, I think the logic goes beyond 'X+Y+Z' since the Trinity shouldn't be defined that way in the first place.

Peace,
SOTC

Jackalope · 07-21-2003, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950

Elohim(plural) refers to two not three because the holy spirit is not a third
person.

Excuse me, but isn't what we translate as "holy spirit" the Shekinah? That's the "glory" or "presence" of god here on earth. It's also a feminine noun, which later became personified. So jews spoke of YHWH "and his Shekinah." While the christians obviously added the "son" into the equation, those who were originally jewish would have known of the Shekinah, which was more on earth and in the temple than YHWH was.

scumble · 07-21-2003, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
Such an arguement against the Trinity is impossible because we do not fully understand it.

I wonder why...

SignOfTheCross · 07-21-2003, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scumble
I wonder why...

Why?

Peace,
SOTC

Steven Carr · 07-21-2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by net2002
[B]You guys know of any excellent arguments against the trinity?

The best that i have come across is this one : God, it is said, is composed of X, Y and Z - they have the
same essence but different particulars which make them distinct.

What does it mean to say that an immaterial being is composed of an essence?

Steven Carr · 07-21-2003, 09:59 AM

Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus has the exact same character as his Father's person.

This creates problems for the Trinity view of the same substance, but different persons.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

SignOfTheCross · 07-21-2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Carr
[B]Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus has the exact same character as his Father's person.

This creates problems for the Trinity view of the same substance, but different persons.

Why?

Steven Carr · 07-21-2003, 10:25 AM

How can Jesus be a different person if he has the exact character of the Father?

07-20-2003, 03:01 PM	#1
net2002 Guest Posts: n/a	arguments against the trinity You guys know of any excellent arguments against the trinity? The best that i have come across is this one : God, it is said, is composed of X, Y and Z - they have the same essence but different particulars which make them distinct. Now Scotus would ask (since X, Y and Z 'make up' God as a necessary being) which of the three is the reason that the whole (X + Y + Z) is necessary? Let us now suppose that X is the reason why the whole is necessary. This is makes Y and Z impotent (more importantly, it makes them contingent, and thus they cannot be eternal). What if it is suggested that the necessary being = X + Y + Z? Now, althought this particular exegesis of mine is debatable, it seems to me that what Scotus is saying here is that such as being would be necessary "thrice over" - implicit here is the contention that if X, Y and Z were contingent entities, then how can contingent + contingent + contingent = non-contingent? - since, if all three were necessary beings on their own, they would have no need for the other two. If X was a necessary being, say, it would necessarily exclude Y and Z (necessity is a sufficient condition for excluding Y and Z). The eternity of three necessary beings causes more problems because, should such a thing be the cause, they would be three distinct beings - i.e. the scenario would be tritheistic

07-20-2003, 03:11 PM	#2
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Yes I may have one God is not a trinity he is a family composed of two members. Elohim(plural) refers to two not three because the holy spirit is not a third person. Elowah is the singular of elohim which is not used to describe the God. The real truth is that xtians will alway label their polytheistic god in a monothesic way. The truth is god is a family(polytheistic)

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07-20-2003, 08:39 PM	#3
SignOfTheCross Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 167	Such an arguement against the Trinity is impossible because we do not fully understand it. The best you can do is argue on hypotheticals, but if you wish to make a case, I think the logic goes beyond 'X+Y+Z' since the Trinity shouldn't be defined that way in the first place. Peace, SOTC

07-21-2003, 09:59 AM	#8
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus has the exact same character as his Father's person. This creates problems for the Trinity view of the same substance, but different persons. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

07-21-2003, 10:25 AM	#10
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	How can Jesus be a different person if he has the exact character of the Father?

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