Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-05-2002, 03:55 PM

phlebas,

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

SOMMS:Maybe he's trying to call you back. How would you ever know unless you listened?

Okay, we're about to stretch a perfectly good metaphor beyond all reason.

How is it a stretch? It is a legitimate question. How would you know if God was 'calling you back'?

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

I'm not the one who is hard to reach. If God wanted to make his presence known, he could certainly do it. I tried my best to get in touch with him, is it so much to ask for him to try his best to get in touch with me? For an all-powerful being, it wouldn't be THAT big a burden.

Are you there, God? It's me, phlebas.

What if God has been trying to get in touch with you but your attitude towards God disallows it?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas ]

Goliath · 11-05-2002, 03:59 PM

SOMMS,

You have either unintentionally missed my latest reply to you, or you are deliberately ignoring me. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (for now) and assume the former is true.

You had said:

Quote:

Interestingly enough...it is you who must show that:

God would provide just as much evidence and assurance to those who reject Him as to those who seek Him.

To which I replied:

Quote:

I have made no such claim. Therefore I have no burden of proof.

You, on the other hand, have claimed that your god (if it exists) only shows evidence of its existence to those who already believe in it. The onus of proof is 100% on YOUR shoulders, SOMMS, not mine.

Now, please quit being dishonest about where the burden of proof really lies and either put up or shut up.

....well? If you cannot prove your claim, then your entire argument is forefit.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-05-2002, 04:11 PM

Jamie,

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:

If you do not believe in God, your personal experience on the topic is invalid because you did not have the right attitude.

Untrue. In fact, the atheists personal experience of God is just as 'valid' as the theists. It, in fact, supports it. It illustrates how ones attitude towards God affects ones revelation of God.

Let's get the the heart of the matter: you've mentioned before that at one point in your life you truly sought after God. Is this right?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-05-2002, 04:13 PM

daemon,

Quote:

Originally posted by daemon:
Good grief, I can't believe this silliness has spawned this much conversation. Has anyone pointed out that SOMMS's entire argument is an ad hominem fallacy?

I think you've missed the point daemon.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-05-2002, 04:18 PM

Goliath,

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
SOMMS,

....well? If you cannot prove your claim, then your entire argument is forefit.

First...what is my argument Goliath? Can you state it?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Goliath · 11-05-2002, 04:20 PM

SOMMS,

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
Goliath,

First...what is my argument Goliath? Can you state it?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

I believe it is the following: If the xian god exists, then the amount of evidence for said god's existence is a function of a person's attitude.

Now, if I'm incorrect, then please lay out what your argument is, and prove your claims.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-05-2002, 04:33 PM

Goliath,

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
SOMMS,

I believe it is the following: If the xian god exists, then the amount of evidence for said god's existence is a function of a person's attitude.

Now, if I'm incorrect, then please lay out what your argument is, and prove your claims.

Sincerely,

Goliath

That's it more or less. I would phrase it:

IF the God of the Bible exists...

THEN ones revelation of God is completely dependent upon their attitude towards God or the concept of God...

BECAUSE God wants those who truly want him.

First of all, a quick question:
Can you offer any reason why IF God did exists...ones attitude towards God would not in any way affect their revelation of God?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Biff the unclean · 11-05-2002, 04:45 PM

What if God has been trying to get in touch with you but your attitude towards God disallows it?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Some thoughts and comments. I'm having a great deal of difficulty believing your claim that you were ever an Atheist. I tend to wonder if you think such a claim lends you some credibility?

You have changed the definition of God. You are presenting a God who is powerless. Who cannot even make himself known unless he is believed in. You have changed him from the Almighty to Tinker Bell of the play Peter Pan. The children in the audience must applaud for Tinker Bell to live.

You are making the assumption that Atheists are Atheists because of a perversity and a petulance. You claim that they refuse to look for God. The truth is that the overwhelming majority of us became Atheists BECAUSE we searched so diligently for God. The truth is that Atheism is the LACK of a belief in any Gods. We would cease to be Atheists were proof presented. But there is no proof beyond your claim that you feel like there is a God.

Goliath · 11-05-2002, 04:45 PM

SOMMS,

Quote:

First of all, a quick question:
Can you offer any reason why IF God did exists...ones attitude towards God would not in any way affect their revelation of God?

I will not answer that question. Do you know why I will not answer that question? The reason is because I never made the claim that if your god exists, one's attitude towards your god would not in any way affect one's revelation of said god.

What part of the preceeding paragraph do you not understand?

Sincerely,

Goliath

(edited to fix UBB code)

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]

TerryTryon · 11-05-2002, 05:08 PM

SOMMS:
My passage from theism to atheism was not an easy or pleasant journey. I did not suddenly shout eureka and run out proclaiming that I suddenly realized that god was fake. It took years to get over the double binds and circular arguments that had kept me from analyzing the god-concept in a rational way. If I begged for a revelation and I got it, fine and good. If it didn't come, I was told I hadn't had enough faith. If God had promised some blessing, and I asked for it and got it, fine and good. If I didn't get it, it was because I had asked selfishly, or was not ready to receive it or some other tommyrot. All the failings of the god-concept were deflected back to me as my failings. It took years for me to realize that I was being manipulated into tying myself to the god-concept by continuous, relentless, brutal attacks on my self-esteem. I was told, as you, SOMMS have told us that humility and self abnegation were virtues and the only path to happiness. I covered myself with smugness and bragged about how losing myself in Jesus was the only source of my great happiness.

Fortunately, I was born queer. As a good Christian must, you will question my turning everything over to Christ. How I must have held something back, my heart was not quite broken enough; my spirit was not truly contrite. Maybe I didn't love the Lord, my God, with absolutely all heart, mind, and soul. Perhaps you would be right: it is really hard to keep focused on Jesus' love when even though I could keep my sexuality repressed during the day, my wetdreams were pure gay porn, lots of agonizing, gut wrenching nightmares that allowed no ambiguity whatsoever what I had with so much effort and prayer and counselling had managed to repress from my waking thoughts.

Christian sexual morality is a big, fat lie. It totally misrepresents the nature of human sexuality. People whose sexuality falls within a certain deviation from the mean can pretend with some repression cemented together with a bit of hypocrisy that they are abiding by Christian sexual morality. But I doubt that any Gay person, whose sexual attraction falls outside those deviations could proclaim Christianity without living a seriously divided life.

The folks in charge of defining the god-concept for me had made their God an ogre, who lied about my innate characteristics, and while promising to lift this "abomination" from my life simultaneously allowed to be tortured with dreams that demonstrated the opposite.

When, slowly, over many years, I realized that the love these people showed was, in fact, attacks on my confidence to behave morally, so that I would always be dependent on their "support" in order to live a pure life, when it became clear that any failure in the system was automatically assigned to my wickedness or weakness, I began to see that Christianity society was a malevolent sham with a pecking order more rigid and violent than that of barnyard fowl, where the goal was to raise one's position by "lovingly" showing another that his doubts were his weakness and the failure of the god-concept was the wedge that that forced the divided parts into what appears as a single piece.

I cannot claim that atheism has brought to me an awesome feeling of peace and unmeasureable happiness. I will only claim that it has allowed me the freedom to explore life without the mindgames that kept me trapped in a narrow world view. I can also claim that it has allowed me to work on repairing my self esteem. And my atheist fellows have assisted me, by reassuring me that it is not my fault that an nonexistent entity has no power, and by showing that pecking order hierarchies-while intrinsically human-need not be wallowed in.

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11-05-2002, 04:45 PM	#158
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	What if God has been trying to get in touch with you but your attitude towards God disallows it? Thoughts and comments welcomed, Some thoughts and comments. I'm having a great deal of difficulty believing your claim that you were ever an Atheist. I tend to wonder if you think such a claim lends you some credibility? You have changed the definition of God. You are presenting a God who is powerless. Who cannot even make himself known unless he is believed in. You have changed him from the Almighty to Tinker Bell of the play Peter Pan. The children in the audience must applaud for Tinker Bell to live. You are making the assumption that Atheists are Atheists because of a perversity and a petulance. You claim that they refuse to look for God. The truth is that the overwhelming majority of us became Atheists BECAUSE we searched so diligently for God. The truth is that Atheism is the LACK of a belief in any Gods. We would cease to be Atheists were proof presented. But there is no proof beyond your claim that you feel like there is a God.

11-05-2002, 05:08 PM	#160
TerryTryon Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Glendale, Arizona, USA Posts: 184	SOMMS: My passage from theism to atheism was not an easy or pleasant journey. I did not suddenly shout eureka and run out proclaiming that I suddenly realized that god was fake. It took years to get over the double binds and circular arguments that had kept me from analyzing the god-concept in a rational way. If I begged for a revelation and I got it, fine and good. If it didn't come, I was told I hadn't had enough faith. If God had promised some blessing, and I asked for it and got it, fine and good. If I didn't get it, it was because I had asked selfishly, or was not ready to receive it or some other tommyrot. All the failings of the god-concept were deflected back to me as my failings. It took years for me to realize that I was being manipulated into tying myself to the god-concept by continuous, relentless, brutal attacks on my self-esteem. I was told, as you, SOMMS have told us that humility and self abnegation were virtues and the only path to happiness. I covered myself with smugness and bragged about how losing myself in Jesus was the only source of my great happiness. Fortunately, I was born queer. As a good Christian must, you will question my turning everything over to Christ. How I must have held something back, my heart was not quite broken enough; my spirit was not truly contrite. Maybe I didn't love the Lord, my God, with absolutely all heart, mind, and soul. Perhaps you would be right: it is really hard to keep focused on Jesus' love when even though I could keep my sexuality repressed during the day, my wetdreams were pure gay porn, lots of agonizing, gut wrenching nightmares that allowed no ambiguity whatsoever what I had with so much effort and prayer and counselling had managed to repress from my waking thoughts. Christian sexual morality is a big, fat lie. It totally misrepresents the nature of human sexuality. People whose sexuality falls within a certain deviation from the mean can pretend with some repression cemented together with a bit of hypocrisy that they are abiding by Christian sexual morality. But I doubt that any Gay person, whose sexual attraction falls outside those deviations could proclaim Christianity without living a seriously divided life. The folks in charge of defining the god-concept for me had made their God an ogre, who lied about my innate characteristics, and while promising to lift this "abomination" from my life simultaneously allowed to be tortured with dreams that demonstrated the opposite. When, slowly, over many years, I realized that the love these people showed was, in fact, attacks on my confidence to behave morally, so that I would always be dependent on their "support" in order to live a pure life, when it became clear that any failure in the system was automatically assigned to my wickedness or weakness, I began to see that Christianity society was a malevolent sham with a pecking order more rigid and violent than that of barnyard fowl, where the goal was to raise one's position by "lovingly" showing another that his doubts were his weakness and the failure of the god-concept was the wedge that that forced the divided parts into what appears as a single piece. I cannot claim that atheism has brought to me an awesome feeling of peace and unmeasureable happiness. I will only claim that it has allowed me the freedom to explore life without the mindgames that kept me trapped in a narrow world view. I can also claim that it has allowed me to work on repairing my self esteem. And my atheist fellows have assisted me, by reassuring me that it is not my fault that an nonexistent entity has no power, and by showing that pecking order hierarchies-while intrinsically human-need not be wallowed in.

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