Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 08-05-2002, 07:04 AM

What does "according to the flesh" mean to the enlightened theists here?
In addition, what does "born of woman"
Galatians 4:1-4 says:

Quote:

Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

I have Boneyard bill arguing that "born of woman" means Paul was speaking about a historical Jesus.
The interpretation of this verse is almost central to Dohety's Thesis of a Mythical Jesus. Its significant because it demonstrated Paul, an early Christian, based his "faith" on an allegorical Christ, NOT a historical one.

First, I would Like theists to tell me:
1. Why doesnt Paul identify the "woman" as Mary?
2. Why doesnt he also identify where this son was born? And why doesnt he refer to the son as Jesus?
3. What does Paul mean when he says "while we were children"?
4. What law held them "in bondage under the elemental things of the world"?

My response to Boneyard Bill was:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You say that Paul probably didnt know the name of Jesus' mother or Jesus' birthplace. You are right although you seem hesitant to accept the truth that is staring at you: Paul didnt know Mary or even that Jesus had been born physically.

Remember, as Earl Doherty says "the contexts of both the passage tends to belie the convenient interpretation everyone would like to give them"

The nexus of the interpretation of the passage is your understanding of what "born of woman" or "born of the flesh" aka "according to the flesh" "kata sarka or en sarki. Paul was using the allegorical meaning, not the literal meaning.

This phrase, "born of woman" was also used in reference to Dionysos and it did not mean Dionysos was born ON earth. And interpretation of the passage should be based on Isaiah 7:14. Paul heavily used esoteric terms and we can think of him as a gnostic for example:Col. 2:12 "...having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, " and Gal. 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me."

He says he now lives the life in the flesh. What does that mean?

The "ancient" worldview had the word divided in "layers" and this was Paul's worldview Earl Doherty explains

Quote:

Paul’s concept of Christ as a supernatural divinity conforms to the dominant religious expression of the day. The saving deities of the Greco-Roman mystery religions were regarded as entirely mythical. Mithras’ slaying of the bull was not an historical act that had taken place on earth. No one searched the soil of Asia Minor in hopes of finding the genitals severed from the Great Mother’s consort Attis. Such deities could be spoken of as born in caves, sleeping, eating, dying and being dismembered, without such deeds being thought of as taking place in normal history, let alone a recent one. In the period of Christianity’s inception, the higher, spiritual part of the universe was regarded as the “genuine�? reality, with the earthly, material sphere only an imperfect ‘copy’ of the higher realm, and it was in that upper world that spiritual, salvific processes were regarded as taking place.

So, being born of the flesh actually means "in the sphere of the flesh". In Romans 1:3, Paul also makes it clear he is relying on the OT reference of the Messiah, NOT the Jesus of the Gosplels. Earl Adds: "Platonism was the dominant way of perceiving these things, and Christ was regarded as operating in a spiritual realm, not a primordial historical one. The 'material' characteristics he is given, such as the 'likeness' of flesh and blood, and aspects like a relationship to David, are not only derived from scripture, they fit into the Platonic scheme of things"

So Paul was merely propagating the salvific story in the OT and was either unaware that some people claimed existence of a historical Jesus, or did not espouse the historical claims behind such soteriology. As with other extant pagan salvation cults, he eheumerised christ in a sublunar realm that was not necessarily earthly.

If you insist he was referring to a historical Jesus literally born of a physical human, you need to come up with cogent reasons why he does not refer to her by name or to his birthplace. You will also need to reconcile that with the incongruous Romans 1:3 which makes it clear that Paul embraced a messiah of a Davinic descent in the flesh and you will need to explain what he means by "according to the flesh" in Romans 1:3.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Any Takers?

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Jacob Aliet ]</p>

08-06-2002, 02:00 AM

Greetings all,

a plain translation of "kata sarka" might be :
'physically'

here is my page collating some ancient uses :

kata sarka refs

QuentinJ

Peter Kirby · 08-08-2002, 07:07 AM

Phaedrus [250c] the most blessed of mysteries, which we celebrated in a state of perfection, when we were without experience of the evils which awaited us in the time to come, being permitted as initiates to the sight of perfect and simple and calm and happy apparitions, which we saw in the pure light, being ourselves pure and not entombed in this which we carry about with us and call the body, in which we are imprisoned like an oyster in its shell.

Phaedrus [250c] makari�tat�n, h�n �rgiazomen holokl�roi men autoi ontes kai apatheis kak�n hosa h�mas en huster�i chron�i hupemenen, holokl�ra de kai hapla kai atrem� kai eudaimona phasmata muoumenoi te kai epopteuontes en aug�i katharai, katharoi ontes kai as�mantoi toutou ho nun d� s�ma [body] peripherontes onomazomen, ostreou tropon dedesmeumenoi.

Republic [501b] I take it, in the course of the work they would glance1 frequently in either direction, at justice, beauty, sobriety and the like as they are in the nature of things,2 and alternately at that which they were trying to reproduce in mankind, mingling and blending from various pursuits that hue of the flesh, so to speak, deriving their judgement from that likeness of humanity3 which Homer too called when it appeared in men the image and likeness of God.4 "Right," he said. "And they would erase one touch or stroke and paint in another

[501b] epeita oimai apergazomenoi pukna an hekater�s' apoblepoien, pros te to phusei dikaion kai kalon kai s�phron kai panta ta toiauta, kai pros ekein' au to en tois anthr�pois empoioien, summeignuntes te kai kerannuntes ek t�n epit�deumat�n [a pursuit, business, practice - neut gen pl] to andreikelon [an image of a man - neut acc sg], ap' ekeinou tekmairomenoi, ho d� kai Hom�ros ekalesen en tois anthr�pois engignomenon theoeides te kai theoeikelon. orth�s, eph�. kai to men an oimai exaleiphoien, to de palin engraphoien,

Cyropedia 8.7.21. [21] "Consider again," he continued, "that there is nothing in the world more nearly akin to death than is sleep; and the soul of man at just such times is revealed in its most divine aspect and at such times, too, it looks forward into the future; for then, it seems, it is most untrammelled by the bonds of the flesh.

enno�sate d', eph�, hoti enguteron men t�n anthr�pin�n thanat�i ouden estin hupnou: h� de tou anthr�pou psuch� tote d�pou theiotat� kataphainetai kai [and] tote [then] ti [it] t�n [the/that] mellont�n [to intend to do] proorai [see what is just before the eyes]:

This is a loose translation, perhaps of a Greek idiom, but not related to KATA SARKA.

Cicero - On the Nature of the Gods, Book II, 44 and Dream of Scipio. These are not on Perseus and are in Latin.

Demosthenes Speech 60. [12] Let no one think I have enumerated this list of achievements because I am at a loss what to say about each of them; for if I were the most helpless of all men in discovering what it becomes me to say, the sheer virtue of those dead reveals what sentiments lie to hand and are easy to rehearse. It is my intention, however, after calling to mind their noble birth and the magnificent things done by their ancestors, with all speed to link my speech with the deeds of these dead, to the end that, just as they were akin in the flesh, so I may make the words of praise spoken over them to apply to both alike. I assume that this would be gratifying not only to the ancestors but, best of all, to both them and these dead, if they should come to share one another's merit not only by virtue of birth but also by reason of our words of praise.

[12] m�deis d' h�geisth� m' aporounta ti chr� peri tout�n eipein hekastou, tauta ta prachthent' ap�rithm�kenai. ei gar hapant�n am�chan�tatos �n ho ti chr� legein porisasthai, h� 'kein�n aret� deiknusin aut� ha kai procheira kai rhaidi' epelthein estin. alla proairoumai t�s eugeneias kai t�n para tois progonois megist�n mn�stheis h�s tachista sunapsai ton logon pros ta toisde pepragmena, hina, h�sper tas phuseis �san sungeneis, hout� tous epainous ep' aut�n koinous poi�s�mai ["deeds"], hupolamban�n taut' an einai kecharismena [kakeinois] kai malist' amphoterois ["to the end that, just as they were akin in the flesh, so I may make the words of praise spoken over them to apply to both alike"], ei t�s all�l�n aret�s m� monon t�i phusei metaschoien, alla kai tois epainois.

Romans 8:4. [World English Bible] that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[4] hina to dikai�ma tou nomou pl�r�th�i en h�min tois m� kata sarka peripatousin alla kata

This is a genuine reference to KATA SARKA in Paul. There are others, of course.

Philo -

'' When the mind rises on high and is initiated into the mysteries [myst�ria] of the Lord, it judges the body [to be] evil and hostile; but when it leaves off seeking divine things, it believes it a friend and a brother'' (Allegorical Interpretation 3.7)

'' it does not see, because the aeon of the flesh came to be in the great bodies. And there themselves and had entered into the flesh, the father of the flesh, the water, avenged (and) nourishes them in the permanent places. And the judgment of the flesh was as he spoke in the first aeon of the flesh, as Noah. Now concerning his words, which he immeasurable light, (where) there is no one of the flesh nor the wantonness of the first to according to our birth of the flesh, in the creation of the archons, which gives law'' (The Concept of Our Great Power)

I do not have the Greek for Philo, so I cannot confirm or deny that EN SARKA or KATA SARKA is used in these passages.

Wars 2.154. For their doctrine is this: That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue for ever; and that they come out of the most subtile air, and are united to their bodies as to prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement; but that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward.

Kai gar err�tai par' autois h�de h� doxa, phtharta men einai ta s�mata kai t�n hul�n ou monimon aut�n, tas de psuchas athanatous aei diamenein, kai sumplekesthai men ek tou leptotatou phoit�sas aitheros h�sper [just as if] heirktais [prisons] tois s�masin [bodies] iungi [wryneck] tini phusik�i [natural] katasp�menas [to pull down], epeidan [whenever] de aneth�si [sent forth] t�n kata sarka desm�n [a binding according to the flesh], hoia [such as] d� makras [long] douleias [slavish] ap�llagmenas [to set free] tote [at that time] chairein [to rejoice] kai mete�rous [mount upward] pheresthai [to bear].

Here an instance of KATA SARKA is found.

Plutarch - On the Delay of Divine Justice. I believe that Plutarch wrote in Latin, but this work is not in Perseus.

Ignatius -

'' They that are of the flesh cannot do the things of the Spirit, neither can they that are of the Spirit do the things of the flesh; even as faith cannot do the things of unfaithfulness, neither unfaithfulness the things of the faith. Nay, even those things which ye do after the flesh are spiritual.'' (Ephesians 8:2)

'' Therefore do ye all study conformity to God and pay reverence one to another; and let no man regard his neighbor AFTER THE FLESH, but love ye one another in Jesus Christ always.'' (Magnesians 6:2)

'' For even though certain persons desired to deceive me AFTER THE FLESH, yet the spirit is not deceived, being from God'' (Philadelphians 7:1)

'' Entreat ye for me, that I may attain [through the Holy Spirit]. I write not unto you after the flesh, but after the mind of God.'' (Romans 8:3)

To Diognetus -

'' They find themselves in the flesh, and yet they live not AFTER THE FLESH. Their existence is on earth, but their citizenship is in heaven.'' (5:8)

If it interests you, I will look these up in Kirsopp Lake's Apostolic Fathers next time at the library. It would be no trouble at all.

Aristides -

'' And when they see a stranger, they take him in to their homes and rejoice over him as a very brother; for they do not call them brethren AFTER THE FLESH, but brethren after the spirit and in God.'' (Apology,XV)

J. R. Harris presents Syriac, Greek, and English for The Apology of Aristides (Cambridge 1893). But I think that the text may plausibly have been KATA SARKA here.

The rest of these, I don't have the original languages for comparison. Perhaps you might add a disclaimer that you are working with the texts in English. And some of the quotes listed above should be removed because they refer to swma, not sarx, or they refer to neither.

The abridged TLG turned up three matches for KATA SARKA in Epicurus.

1. Epicurus Phil., Ratae sententiae. {0537.001} Fragment 4 line 3. (Browse)

Ou chronizei to algoun sunech�s en t�i sarki, al-
la to men akron ton elachiston chronon paresti, to de monon huper-
teinon to h�domenon kata sarka ou pollas h�meras sumbainei: hai
de poluchronioi t�n arr�sti�n pleonazon echousi to h�domenon en
t�i sarki �per to algoun.

2. Epicurus Phil., Deperditorum librorum reliquiae. {0537.003} Treatise 31 fragment 23 line 29. (Browse)

mas? �toi? k[!]on o?uthen
dia[!]er[!]pe[!]le?pe? t'au- (20)
to phero[u]ses amphote-
ra ta ono[ma]ta: k[ai t�n]
phusin kakizon?[tes]
homoi�[s] touto[us ka-]
kiz[o]men, hotan [ep' e-] @1 (25)
x�[l]eiai aut�[s �i h�]
[dial]ek[tos.] est[i d' hote]
[kata] t[�n] pr�t[�]n [ep']
[all�]n kata sar[k]a kai
sust[asin horm�]n t�i tou
kat�goroumen [s]us[tas]e�s kai
ou kat' auto � kai aut�<n> prosago-
reu[o]men�s: k'an kata dianoian
d' e[is ti] ekbiaz�tai h� pr�t� su-
st[a]sis tou apoge<ge>nn�menou, m�
ex anagk�s mechri t�ndi tin�n
to[i]o[u]de apogenn�me[nou, al-]
la mechri m�n tou psuch�n genes- @1
thai � kai tosa?[u?]t�ni diathesin

3. Epicurus Phil., Epistularum fragmenta. {0537.004} Fragment 66 line 11. (Browse)

[]r[!]oum�s[!!!!!!]k�i dun[�-]
then prosp[
kai chalepa[ --- --- --- ]�
th� kai pros --- --- --- --- --- kai
[sum]path� k[!!!!!!!]kois pa-
si tou b[iou k]airois e[p'] a- @1
kron eu di�kt[e!!!!]is hu-
p' autou kata to o[n]�sipho-
#6ron t[�]i phus[e]i t[elos:] h�s gar
elpidos ho kairo[s e]psil�th
kai t�s k[at]a sa[rka] h�don�s
kai epim[on�s] a[p]eleiphth�
t�[s t�n gegonot]�n chari-
tos, a[r' an eti t�r]�saimi s[oi,]
M�t[rod�re, ti ho]ion katast�-
ma phu[sikon? mech]ri men hosou

I am sure that King Arthur could translate this stuff for us.

best,
Peter Kirby

08-08-2002, 04:08 PM

Greetings Peter,

good job on your analysis - yes, I did collect uncritically in English - thanks for your comments.

and congratulations on being a moderator

QuentinJ

Ted Hoffman · 08-09-2002, 04:26 AM

What? Peter a moderator? I didn't notice. Congrats Peter.
And thanks for your posts - Peter and Iaison. I appreciate all the references to Kata and en sarka but I was more interested in Pauls meanings when he used the term(s). From your references, its apparent that various authors used them differently to mean different things.

King Arthur · 08-09-2002, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by peterkirby:
1. Epicurus Phil., Ratae sententiae. {0537.001} Fragment 4 line 3. (Browse)

Ou chronizei to algoun sunech?n t�*sarki, al-
la to men akron ton elachiston chronon paresti, to de monon huper-
teinon to h꤯menon kata sarka ou pollas h�*�ras sumbainei: hai
de poluchronioi t?rr??leonazon echousi to h꤯menon en
t�*sarki 갥r to algoun.

Please. This is not exactly easy Greek to translate. I'm not doing them all.

Here goes:

Literal Inline

Ou chronizei (not spends time) to algoun (suffering) sunech?sustained) en t�*sarki (in the flesh),

alla (but) to men akron (lit. at the furthest point)

ton elachiston chronon (the small time) paresti (is present),

to de monon huperteinon (but even outweighing)

to h꤯menon kata sarka (the pleasure according to the flesh)

ou pollas h�*�ras sumbainei (not many days together):

hai de poluchronioi t?rr??The long-lasting sicknesses)

pleonazon (more) echousi (have)

to h꤯menon (the pleasure) en t�*sarki (in the flesh)

갥r to algoun. (than the suffering.)

Translation that makes sense (sort of)

Sustained suffering does not spend time in the flesh, but on the contrary, is present a short time, and even that {suffering} outweighing pleasure according to the flesh (kata sarka) not many days together {lasts}. But long-lasting sicknesses have more pleasure in the flesh than suffering.

(words in curly braces are not actually part of the Greek but are added for sense)

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]</p>

King Arthur · 08-10-2002, 08:01 AM

Bump. Geez, what? No thanks?

Peter Kirby · 08-10-2002, 02:24 PM

King Arthur, thanks for giving us your translation.

I went to the library today. George K. Stroduch translates this passage as follows (The Philosophy of Epicurus, 196-197):

"Bodily pain does not last continuously. The peak is present for a vrey brief period, and pain that barely exceeds the state of bodily pleasure does not continue for many days. On the other hand, protracted illnesses show a balance of bodily pleasure over pain."

best,
Peter Kirby

King Arthur · 08-10-2002, 05:20 PM

Cool! Thanks for the thanks, Peter.

Mine was a rather wooden translation, Peter's author is much better. However, I'm not sure exactly why he stuck the "on the other hand" where he did. Doesn't seem like it should go there since it comes much earlier than that in the Greek. No matter...

Peter Kirby · 08-10-2002, 06:45 PM

So far, I have only found two non-Christian authors who use the phrase KATA SARKA, Josephus and Epicurus. Their quotes are found above. I could perhaps find more with the full TLG.

The Josephus reference was translated as "of the flesh" by Whiston, and the first reference from Epicurus was translated "bodily" by Stroduch.

Is there any support in a non-Christian text for a rendering of the phrase that does not imply that the thing modified by KATA SARKA is physical?

best,
Peter Kirby

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08-06-2002, 02:00 AM	#2
Iasion Guest Posts: n/a	Greetings all, a plain translation of "kata sarka" might be : 'physically' here is my page collating some ancient uses : kata sarka refs QuentinJ

08-08-2002, 07:07 AM	#3
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Phaedrus [250c] the most blessed of mysteries, which we celebrated in a state of perfection, when we were without experience of the evils which awaited us in the time to come, being permitted as initiates to the sight of perfect and simple and calm and happy apparitions, which we saw in the pure light, being ourselves pure and not entombed in this which we carry about with us and call the body, in which we are imprisoned like an oyster in its shell. Phaedrus [250c] makari�tat�n, h�n �rgiazomen holokl�roi men autoi ontes kai apatheis kak�n hosa h�mas en huster�i chron�i hupemenen, holokl�ra de kai hapla kai atrem� kai eudaimona phasmata muoumenoi te kai epopteuontes en aug�i katharai, katharoi ontes kai as�mantoi toutou ho nun d� s�ma [body] peripherontes onomazomen, ostreou tropon dedesmeumenoi. Republic [501b] I take it, in the course of the work they would glance1 frequently in either direction, at justice, beauty, sobriety and the like as they are in the nature of things,2 and alternately at that which they were trying to reproduce in mankind, mingling and blending from various pursuits that hue of the flesh, so to speak, deriving their judgement from that likeness of humanity3 which Homer too called when it appeared in men the image and likeness of God.4 "Right," he said. "And they would erase one touch or stroke and paint in another [501b] epeita oimai apergazomenoi pukna an hekater�s' apoblepoien, pros te to phusei dikaion kai kalon kai s�phron kai panta ta toiauta, kai pros ekein' au to en tois anthr�pois empoioien, summeignuntes te kai kerannuntes ek t�n epit�deumat�n [a pursuit, business, practice - neut gen pl] to andreikelon [an image of a man - neut acc sg], ap' ekeinou tekmairomenoi, ho d� kai Hom�ros ekalesen en tois anthr�pois engignomenon theoeides te kai theoeikelon. orth�s, eph�. kai to men an oimai exaleiphoien, to de palin engraphoien, Cyropedia 8.7.21. [21] "Consider again," he continued, "that there is nothing in the world more nearly akin to death than is sleep; and the soul of man at just such times is revealed in its most divine aspect and at such times, too, it looks forward into the future; for then, it seems, it is most untrammelled by the bonds of the flesh. enno�sate d', eph�, hoti enguteron men t�n anthr�pin�n thanat�i ouden estin hupnou: h� de tou anthr�pou psuch� tote d�pou theiotat� kataphainetai kai [and] tote [then] ti [it] t�n [the/that] mellont�n [to intend to do] proorai [see what is just before the eyes]: This is a loose translation, perhaps of a Greek idiom, but not related to KATA SARKA. Cicero - On the Nature of the Gods, Book II, 44 and Dream of Scipio. These are not on Perseus and are in Latin. Demosthenes Speech 60. [12] Let no one think I have enumerated this list of achievements because I am at a loss what to say about each of them; for if I were the most helpless of all men in discovering what it becomes me to say, the sheer virtue of those dead reveals what sentiments lie to hand and are easy to rehearse. It is my intention, however, after calling to mind their noble birth and the magnificent things done by their ancestors, with all speed to link my speech with the deeds of these dead, to the end that, just as they were akin in the flesh, so I may make the words of praise spoken over them to apply to both alike. I assume that this would be gratifying not only to the ancestors but, best of all, to both them and these dead, if they should come to share one another's merit not only by virtue of birth but also by reason of our words of praise. [12] m�deis d' h�geisth� m' aporounta ti chr� peri tout�n eipein hekastou, tauta ta prachthent' ap�rithm�kenai. ei gar hapant�n am�chan�tatos �n ho ti chr� legein porisasthai, h� 'kein�n aret� deiknusin aut� ha kai procheira kai rhaidi' epelthein estin. alla proairoumai t�s eugeneias kai t�n para tois progonois megist�n mn�stheis h�s tachista sunapsai ton logon pros ta toisde pepragmena, hina, h�sper tas phuseis �san sungeneis, hout� tous epainous ep' aut�n koinous poi�s�mai ["deeds"], hupolamban�n taut' an einai kecharismena [kakeinois] kai malist' amphoterois ["to the end that, just as they were akin in the flesh, so I may make the words of praise spoken over them to apply to both alike"], ei t�s all�l�n aret�s m� monon t�i phusei metaschoien, alla kai tois epainois. Romans 8:4. [World English Bible] that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [4] hina to dikai�ma tou nomou pl�r�th�i en h�min tois m� kata sarka peripatousin alla kata This is a genuine reference to KATA SARKA in Paul. There are others, of course. Philo - '' When the mind rises on high and is initiated into the mysteries [myst�ria] of the Lord, it judges the body [to be] evil and hostile; but when it leaves off seeking divine things, it believes it a friend and a brother'' (Allegorical Interpretation 3.7) '' it does not see, because the aeon of the flesh came to be in the great bodies. And there themselves and had entered into the flesh, the father of the flesh, the water, avenged (and) nourishes them in the permanent places. And the judgment of the flesh was as he spoke in the first aeon of the flesh, as Noah. Now concerning his words, which he immeasurable light, (where) there is no one of the flesh nor the wantonness of the first to according to our birth of the flesh, in the creation of the archons, which gives law'' (The Concept of Our Great Power) I do not have the Greek for Philo, so I cannot confirm or deny that EN SARKA or KATA SARKA is used in these passages. Wars 2.154. For their doctrine is this: That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue for ever; and that they come out of the most subtile air, and are united to their bodies as to prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement; but that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward. Kai gar err�tai par' autois h�de h� doxa, phtharta men einai ta s�mata kai t�n hul�n ou monimon aut�n, tas de psuchas athanatous aei diamenein, kai sumplekesthai men ek tou leptotatou phoit�sas aitheros h�sper [just as if] heirktais [prisons] tois s�masin [bodies] iungi [wryneck] tini phusik�i [natural] katasp�menas [to pull down], epeidan [whenever] de aneth�si [sent forth] t�n kata sarka desm�n [a binding according to the flesh], hoia [such as] d� makras [long] douleias [slavish] ap�llagmenas [to set free] tote [at that time] chairein [to rejoice] kai mete�rous [mount upward] pheresthai [to bear]. Here an instance of KATA SARKA is found. Plutarch - On the Delay of Divine Justice. I believe that Plutarch wrote in Latin, but this work is not in Perseus. Ignatius - '' They that are of the flesh cannot do the things of the Spirit, neither can they that are of the Spirit do the things of the flesh; even as faith cannot do the things of unfaithfulness, neither unfaithfulness the things of the faith. Nay, even those things which ye do after the flesh are spiritual.'' (Ephesians 8:2) '' Therefore do ye all study conformity to God and pay reverence one to another; and let no man regard his neighbor AFTER THE FLESH, but love ye one another in Jesus Christ always.'' (Magnesians 6:2) '' For even though certain persons desired to deceive me AFTER THE FLESH, yet the spirit is not deceived, being from God'' (Philadelphians 7:1) '' Entreat ye for me, that I may attain [through the Holy Spirit]. I write not unto you after the flesh, but after the mind of God.'' (Romans 8:3) To Diognetus - '' They find themselves in the flesh, and yet they live not AFTER THE FLESH. Their existence is on earth, but their citizenship is in heaven.'' (5:8) If it interests you, I will look these up in Kirsopp Lake's Apostolic Fathers next time at the library. It would be no trouble at all. Aristides - '' And when they see a stranger, they take him in to their homes and rejoice over him as a very brother; for they do not call them brethren AFTER THE FLESH, but brethren after the spirit and in God.'' (Apology,XV) J. R. Harris presents Syriac, Greek, and English for The Apology of Aristides (Cambridge 1893). But I think that the text may plausibly have been KATA SARKA here. The rest of these, I don't have the original languages for comparison. Perhaps you might add a disclaimer that you are working with the texts in English. And some of the quotes listed above should be removed because they refer to swma, not sarx, or they refer to neither. The abridged TLG turned up three matches for KATA SARKA in Epicurus. 1. Epicurus Phil., Ratae sententiae. {0537.001} Fragment 4 line 3. (Browse) Ou chronizei to algoun sunech�s en t�i sarki, al- la to men akron ton elachiston chronon paresti, to de monon huper- teinon to h�domenon kata sarka ou pollas h�meras sumbainei: hai de poluchronioi t�n arr�sti�n pleonazon echousi to h�domenon en t�i sarki �per to algoun. 2. Epicurus Phil., Deperditorum librorum reliquiae. {0537.003} Treatise 31 fragment 23 line 29. (Browse) mas? �toi? k[!]on o?uthen dia[!]er[!]pe[!]le?pe? t'au- (20) to phero[u]ses amphote- ra ta ono[ma]ta: k[ai t�n] phusin kakizon?[tes] homoi�[s] touto[us ka-] kiz[o]men, hotan [ep' e-] @1 (25) x�[l]eiai aut�[s �i h�] [dial]ek[tos.] est[i d' hote] [kata] t[�n] pr�t[�]n [ep'] [all�]n kata sar[k]a kai sust[asin horm�]n t�i tou kat�goroumen [s]us[tas]e�s kai ou kat' auto � kai aut�<n> prosago- reu[o]men�s: k'an kata dianoian d' e[is ti] ekbiaz�tai h� pr�t� su- st[a]sis tou apoge<ge>nn�menou, m� ex anagk�s mechri t�ndi tin�n to[i]o[u]de apogenn�me[nou, al-] la mechri m�n tou psuch�n genes- @1 thai � kai tosa?[u?]t�ni diathesin 3. Epicurus Phil., Epistularum fragmenta. {0537.004} Fragment 66 line 11. (Browse) []r[!]oum�s[!!!!!!]k�i dun[�-] then prosp[ kai chalepa[ --- --- --- ]� th� kai pros --- --- --- --- --- kai [sum]path� k[!!!!!!!]kois pa- si tou b[iou k]airois e[p'] a- @1 kron eu di�kt[e!!!!]is hu- p' autou kata to o[n]�sipho- #6ron t[�]i phus[e]i t[elos:] h�s gar elpidos ho kairo[s e]psil�th kai t�s k[at]a sa[rka] h�don�s kai epim[on�s] a[p]eleiphth� t�[s t�n gegonot]�n chari- tos, a[r' an eti t�r]�saimi s[oi,] M�t[rod�re, ti ho]ion katast�- ma phu[sikon? mech]ri men hosou I am sure that King Arthur could translate this stuff for us. best, Peter Kirby

08-08-2002, 04:08 PM	#4
Iasion Guest Posts: n/a	Greetings Peter, good job on your analysis - yes, I did collect uncritically in English - thanks for your comments. and congratulations on being a moderator QuentinJ

08-09-2002, 04:26 AM	#5
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	What? Peter a moderator? I didn't notice. Congrats Peter. And thanks for your posts - Peter and Iaison. I appreciate all the references to Kata and en sarka but I was more interested in Pauls meanings when he used the term(s). From your references, its apparent that various authors used them differently to mean different things.

08-10-2002, 08:01 AM	#7
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	Bump. Geez, what? No thanks?

08-10-2002, 02:24 PM	#8
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	King Arthur, thanks for giving us your translation. I went to the library today. George K. Stroduch translates this passage as follows (The Philosophy of Epicurus, 196-197): "Bodily pain does not last continuously. The peak is present for a vrey brief period, and pain that barely exceeds the state of bodily pleasure does not continue for many days. On the other hand, protracted illnesses show a balance of bodily pleasure over pain." best, Peter Kirby

08-10-2002, 05:20 PM	#9
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	Cool! Thanks for the thanks, Peter. Mine was a rather wooden translation, Peter's author is much better. However, I'm not sure exactly why he stuck the "on the other hand" where he did. Doesn't seem like it should go there since it comes much earlier than that in the Greek. No matter...

08-10-2002, 06:45 PM	#10
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	So far, I have only found two non-Christian authors who use the phrase KATA SARKA, Josephus and Epicurus. Their quotes are found above. I could perhaps find more with the full TLG. The Josephus reference was translated as "of the flesh" by Whiston, and the first reference from Epicurus was translated "bodily" by Stroduch. Is there any support in a non-Christian text for a rendering of the phrase that does not imply that the thing modified by KATA SARKA is physical? best, Peter Kirby

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