wascalywabit

I'm not a philosopher, although I did minor in it at college (whatever weight that holds). However, due to my immersion in Christianity these last few years (I've escaped), my mind hasn't exactly been active. To the question:
If God has perfection, then he is perfect in ALL aspects - perfect happiness & satisfaction included. If, having perfect satisfaction, what volition would this perfect being have to create? Some would present the "art for art's sake" theory, but ultimately does creation benefit the creator or others related to him/her?

Prior to "the beginning", God would have existed time without end w/o creating one thing. At what point (if that terminology can be used) would this being decide to create? What would have moved such a being to create (one with perfection). Obviously it would be an act of the Will, but would this be directed by a need or a desire? And if this is the case would God's need ever be satiated? How so? Would his desire to create be infinite as well? If not, then his need to create was satiated and his perfection is in question.

rusty

Starboy

Exactly, why would a perfect being need to create anything?

Starboy

Beoran

And even if she did so for the sake of art, would not a perfect being's creations be perfeect in themselves? Does a perfect potter make crooked pots?

Mr. Sammi

What is the scope of the perfection? Does this scope include attitudes, sentiments, relationships, friends.

For a perfect being to remain perfect then all around must be perfect otherwise the perfection is tainted by someoneelse's imperfection, otherwise to all the perfect must avoid the imperfect.

It is the same as trying to be absolutely good in a bad world, presque impossible.

To truly answer the question, some assumptions have to be made and I am not prepared to make any of those assumptions.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

GodLessWarriorTM

An all-(everything) god would not be creative. He/she would actually be incapable of making decisions/changing his/her own mind.

If I am all knowing I never actually make a decision. I would never be able to deviate from the path of what I know I will do because I would then be wrong about my prediction of the future. This can't happen because of my omniscience. Its exaclty the reason why there is no free will =).

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Godless, correct.

It is also the reason why a perfect being (God) cannot exist...

Keith.

Infinity Lover

As the expression goes, nessecity is the mother of invention. A god which has no needs, also wouldn't have any reason to create anything... at least not one that I can think of.

Thomas Ash

I think this is an interesting question. I predict one theist response would go along the lines of God's 'decision' to create the world being a necessary part of his nature. In other words, for a universe in which God's-plan (tm) is to be fully realized, there has to be a world in which humans can go from an imperfect state to a state close to God by redeeming themselves. They'd claim that this is a 'better' state of affairs than there being just God, so it would be what God inevitably wills. If I understood correctly, Kenny took a position like this.
I can think of a few possible objections to it:
1) It's highly human-centric to assume that the soa theists think we're in is the optimal manifestation of God's plan. Humans are in reality a very small part of the universe we're in, occupying only one planet in a downmarket part of the Milky Way.
2) If there's an ideal end state of redemption and closeness to God humans could end up at, why couldn't God just create that in the first place.
3) The universe doesn't look very much like a manifestation of God's perfect nature and plan.
4) God doesn't exist.
Can anyone think of any more?

Infinity Lover

I find this a somewhat intriguing notion to get playfull with. And I'm not so sure it nessecarily has to lead to 'God doesn't exist' as I've seen in some posts here.

I had a bit of a heated discussion about this with a believer, who said God created us so we could fullfill a certain purpose. But to me this left the question why he would need to do so unanswered. (And this was where the discussion got heated; unfortunately because I ment no disrespect).

Then it struck me, that a perfect God, with nobody to be of use of, would litterly be 'perfectly useless', which strikes me as one mother of a flaw. Hense the creator needs a creation in order to be perfect in it's nature, same as the creation would need to be imperfect to need the creator, thus making him of use.

Off course that leads to the question whether we would need a god-belief in our life. As an atheist I personally don't, and most likely never will, but can we honestly say there isn't a single person who's life has changed for the better after turning religious?

I don't think it would be fair to only lead one's train of thought in the desired direction; you have to be willing to deal with a different outcome as well.

So; a perfect being would have to produce an imperfect creation that's in need of it's creator, because otherwise this perfect being would be perfectly useless.

Obviously the need to believe in a creator, isn't quite the same as the nessecity for such a creator actually existing. So all bets are still off.

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

Infinity Lover

And I needed to delete a double post.

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>