DRFseven

Feel free to move it if you'd like. Actually, I was thinking I was in "Philosophy" when I posted, but I was here. Since it tied in with "Existence of God", I decided not to ask to have it moved.

a) You would know in advance, because you would have seen so many people press it and become generally happier.

b) No, no memory loss; just some restructuring of truth schema.

Theli

DRFseven...

Thanks for replying.


Wich one? Belief in a god can bring joy just as much as despair. It all depends on the degree of my beleif (and what aspects of god I beleive in).

ok, it's gone.

Actually you said "happiness". And the happiness was a product of a belief wich was constant.
"once you became a believer, you would no longer think that belief was false"
But ok, let's use "happier".

And again comes the blind assumption from the first post. "I will be happier believing in the unspecified god."

Ok, then my happiness can't be a product of my new belief, but an independent product of hitting the button.

Glad to hear that.

But it does matter.
If happiness is a direct product of hitting the button then the belief is unimportant. It is not a gift, but rather a price I have to pay for being happier. And personally, having a belief that is etched into my mind is a way to high price to pay. It will undoubtedly cripple my mind.
But then again, I don't know how severe this godbelief will be.

If you claim that the happiness is a product
of the new godbelief then the only thing I have is your word.
And let's face it, a banana-stealing suspicious character with wild promises of a magic button is not the first person I would trust.
If I did, I would cripple my mind not knowing if you were telling the truth or not.
Just about as smart as playing russian roullete with myself just for the excitement.

Interesting question, though. Makes you wonder how high you value happiness.

[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

daemon

Au contraire--you've set up conditions that require more than that simple change. If I were to suddenly irrationally change my position for no obvious reason, then I would likely not think I knew the truth. Therefore, something else must happen. Saying that it happens in complete isolation from the rest of my mental processes makes no sense, as it would indicate a fundamental shift in how I evaluate evidence and arguments.

DMB

I think I go along with Jamie_L here. I value my selfhood and wouldn't want to lose it. I certainly put it above "happiness", which often seems like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

OK, sometimes one can be deliriously happy, but it doesn't last. What does last is less exciting, and I'd call it "contentment". One can feel basically content, while still experiencing bad things, but contentment as I recognise it is something for which one has to work quite hard, as well as experiencing a modicum of good luck.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing this clearly enough. I don't go along with some xians who claim that suffering enobles one or purifies the soul, but without any struggle, life would be too bland and we wouldn't develop. We exist at all because of the struggles of untold generations of ancestors, back to some primal blob. Struggle is built into us, and provides us with the stimulous to progress.

Pressing the button or taking the ultimate happy pill would be opting out of the mainstream struggle of life. I don't want it!

Jamie_L

Well, despite admonitions to the contrary in the OP, we've gotten hung up on the notion of buttons and instantaneous change. What the OP seems to be getting at (I think) is this:

Which is better: knowing the truth, or believing something false if it is guaranteed to make you happier (no chance of the potential downsides generally involved with being ignorant)?

This is still a silly hypothetical (how can being ignorant never involve any potential risk?). I don't know how I'd answer that one. Have to think...

Jamie

DRFseven

When we attempt to satisfy needs and desires we are attempting to attain the optimum state of comfort available to us. There is nothing we do that does not rely on this motivation. If you disagree, try to name something (but, please, think about it first and don't say that something like studying for a test is not comfortable, because obviously, for those who do it, it is MORE comfortable than the consequences of NOT studying for it).

{QUOTE]1. How do I know this really works? [/QUOTE]

You need to learn to read stipulations. The premise in the setup is that it works; that's a given.

This is why I told you that it's not a trick question. You must assume no negative side effects; just a greater state of happiness.

Our ultimate goal is to achieve happiness (no matter whether that route be through humaniarian behaviors, self-aggrandizement, hedonistic lifestyle, accumulated wealth, etc.). The point of the question is that if you could achieve the ENDS directly, would it matter to you how you got there?

If your dog dies, etc., you'll be unhappy for a while, but then, like most people, you'll return to a general state of happiness. Not manical bliss, but normal, grounded satisfaction with your life.

God (Yes, I know it's not coherently defined, but say you believe in a creator that thinks it somehow screwed up by condemning you to death and now wants to give you everlasting life).

Because I'm a smart-ass. I took the label off a while back and now it's a plain red unlabeled button.

You won't be continuously happy. Just more happy than you are now.

Your faith won't seem to come in conflict. It will seem to you that your faith is well-placed, just as is the case with most people in the world, even though they have heard of science.

DRFseven

Well, it would destroy you in some sense, just as any change in attitude "destroys" us; it's just that we don't view this deconstruction of our old selves as being negative in our day-to-day lives because we are able to attribute changes (rightly or wrongly) to what we consider "truth."

I feel this, too, yet I recognize that the name of the game is comfort; the point is to achieve that state of mental comfort that we refer to as "feeling right" about something. We apply labels such as "pro-choice" or "Independent" or "fiscal conservative" based on how right or wrong the idea of various potential courses of action appear to us, and this is all comfort-level stuff. If the attributes perceived as representative of one label make us uncomfortable, we label ourselves something else that makes us more comfortable.

So my question is this; why do we have such a problem with the idea of cutting straight to the chase and choosing comfort to begin with? I think you are right that we fear the loss of control over directorship of changes, but we don't really have control anyway. If you perceived that a god DID suddenly land on the hood of your car and go "Look, Jamie, here I am; it's true!", you'd have no choice but to believe in it, would you? Your whole frame of reference would undergo a big shift.

DRFseven

Well, since I AM an atheist already, you'd have to ask me about being a happy theist. I'm reluctant to push the button and I'm trying to force myself to look at the issue honestly in order to root out illogical prejudices.

DRFseven

But the reason you value your selfhood is that those attitudes and traits that define you are the ones that make you most comfortable (feel most right) about yourself. You're still saying you wouldn't be happy being happier.

But we are struggling toward happiness; not just for the sake of stuggling.

Jamie_L

The hypothetical scenario is a big red herring that makes the OP about more than just "choosing mental comfort." In my case I must go through BIG discomfort to get to the comfort. How do I trade present comfort for future comfort, especially when life as I know it has no gurantees about future comfort.

This leads to a related issue: the idea of being able to cut to the comfort simply, easily, and with a guarantee, is completely anathema to our experiences. It doesn't match any aspect of life as we know it. That makes it difficult to accept. It makes us suspiscious, fearful. Again, the scenario instills mental discomfort.

More generally: most of us currently find great mental comfort in believing the truth. It is difficult to accept your scenario in which we will have great mental comfort believing that which we currently feel is not true. Again, the scenario, as presented, brings us mental discomfort in our current state.

You'll find it very difficult to get straight answers on this, I think, and not because we're dodging the issue.

Jamie