Magus55

The Laws of the Old Testament are there as a guide to how sinful we really are, since we can't fulfill them. Jesus was the only one to fulfill all the laws, so faith in him is like being able to abide by all laws.

The OT is also the history of God's creation, liberation of the Jews and the steps that He set up leading to the life of his Son, the Messiah.

beastmaster

I thought it went without saying that the Laws of the O.T. were rather easy to fulfill if you have "mainstream" tastes (how hard is it to avoid bestiality or murdering someone or worshiping Baal?) and/or are barbaric. Even Jesus seemed to think the Law was barbaric (see John 8:7, below).

Did Jesus fulfill the Law or destroy it? Supposedly, he *said* he came to fulfill the Law and not destroy it. But we know that Jesus also defied the Law in his actions. Example: in John 8:7, Jesus refuses to stone an adultress to death, *contrary* to the Law of Leviticus 20:10, saying "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." Does that fulfill the Law or destroy it?

I think when Jesus says he came to fulfill the Law, he is speaking *ironically*.

I think he rendered literal adherance to the Law obsolete.

(Assuming Jesus existed at all or did any of the things claimed of him, of course . . .)

Which leaves me wondering what the point is for Xns to read the Law . . . If I were a Xn, I would be trying to dissociate my religion from that book as much as possible.

Sure, the O.T. has the mythological backstory. But it's not the central narrative for Xnty, which si the story of Christ itself. And the story of the Jews is not important to salvation according to Xn theology. And the O.T.'s a heck of an embarrassment morally, historically, and scientifically. So why not ditch it?

Magus55

The 10 Commandments aren't the only laws, there are some 600 laws. And by being God, Jesus is allowed to veto or alter a law. Hes like the U.S Legislative, Justice, and Executive branch in one.

Because the history of the Jews is extremely important. They are what the Tribulation and end of the world will revolve around. The OT is about God and his early planning stages for redemption. Its an important piece of theological doctrine and history.

keyser_soze

Well that sure does make it convenient for the christian side of debate doesn't it? When pushed into a corner, first "we aren't interpreting correctly", when further pushed, "It is unknowable to us", and when backed into the corner all the way, "He is beyond our judgement, rules don't apply to him". How convenient is that?

It's literal, no it's figurative, no wait a minute....IT'S UNKNOWABLE!

beastmaster

Yes, I know.

Sure. And my point is that, since Jesus rendered the Law of the O.T. obsolete, why should the Law be part of the Bible? Why keep dead law on the books?

Important theology and history for Judaism, but not for Xnty.

keyser_soze

Hey, we still have a law on the books in alabama that no one may put peanuts on railroad tracks by penalty of law. Do you think we should keep it. I know they are trying to get rid of the "no shooting whales from a vehicle" in Tennessee. Perhaps they are moving too quickly. After all, there must be reason for all those old laws.

Magus55

Judaism is the roots of Christianity, our Messiah was a Jew. The first people of God ( Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) were jews, so its important to hold on to Christians roots and messiah's people.

For me, its important because i'm a Jew by birth. A descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Its my ancestors history and my saviors liberation of my ancestors from Egypt. Gentile Christians hold on to it for their roots, Messianic Jews hold on to it for their ancestoral history.

MrDarwin

What I want to know is, when did Jesus veto all those laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that Christians routinely ignore?

But perhaps more importantly, am I still allowed to have my disobedient son stoned to death?

Bobzammel

There is no real statement in the New Testament that states the Law will be rendered obselete or fufilled. God in the OT is VERY strict about keeping the laws, and they are praised as guiding people to righteous behavior(Especially in the Psalms). Kings such as Josiah and Hezekiah are praised for doing the Law. Even the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 seems to state it will involve the Law.
In the NT, Jesus makes one statement regarding the Law stating that not one dot will pass from the Law, although he also states he'll fufill it and breaks it a few times. Paul and the Hebrews author seem to regard the Law as something designed to "make" people sin(!) which is pretty ridicolous, and Paul makes all sorts of excuses to get rid of it. He also contrasts it to slavery, and in some passages seems to state that it was given to Moses by spirits and not God. Strangely though there are still rules Christians are stated to follow, or they will not "Inherit the kingdom".
Most likely, Paul probably "sold out" to the Gentiles, who did not practice the Law. For instance some Roman and Greek writers thought the Jewish primitive for still doing things like animal sacrifice. It's really a sign of the times.

beastmaster

Bobzammel, thanks for your post.

I am an atheist and an occasional "bullshit" commentator on Xnty.

As an atheist, my initial position is that Xnty is fatally incoherent. One of its incoherent attributes is Xnty's attitude toward the old Hebrew Law.

Your post does an excellent job of summarizing the tensions within Xnty on the applicability of the Law to Xns (although it sounds like you are partial to the continuing relevancy of the Law).

Without abandoning my atheism, and in an attempt to make sense, provisionally, of Xnty, I have come to the tentative conclusion that Christ's purpose with respect to the Law was to render the Law a set of default rules conditioned on the overriding principles of (1) compassion and (2) non-hypocrisy.

However, the Law is so uncompassionate and hypocritical that Jesus's exceptions swallow (and make a mockery of) the rules. Of course, the few rules that make sense under the Golden Rule, like Thou Shalt Not Kill, survive intact, but on a completely new moral grounding.

I'm left with the distinct impression that Christ turned the OT into toilet paper. IMHO, of course.