Freethought & Rationalism Archive

08-04-2003, 08:58 AM

I'm not well versed in bible stories. Supposedly, Jesus' father, Joseph, was a carpenter and perhaps Jesus himself was brought up in the same trade. I'm not sure how this would apply to his "missing years" from +/- 12 to 30 while he was off studying buddism or whatever.
Anyway, a friend of mine mentioned that a "carpenter" in original Aramaic probably meant "financially secure", instead of the literal translation of laborer that we use today. Is it the general consensus that:

1) Jesus "if" he existed was an actual carpenter or
2) he was financially secure or
3) he made his money through his ministries?

I often hear quoted parables about how Jesus told the masses to do away with materialistic posessions and enhance their spirituality. Makes me wonder if this isn't a case of "do as I say, not as I do".

Thanks in advance.

Clarice O'C · 08-04-2003, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Relative Newcomer

Anyway, a friend of mine mentioned that a "carpenter" in original Aramaic probably meant "financially secure", instead of the literal translation of laborer that we use today. Is it the general consensus that:

Hi,

Richard Bauckham writes for the BAR that Joseph, and later Jesus, "supplemented" their income by doing carpentry:

"12 Apart from the information that members of the third generation of the family of Jesus were still active in Christian leadership, the most interesting aspect of the story is what it tells us about the farm that the brothers held in partnership. The size and value given are so precise that it is likely that they rest on accurate detail. The farm was not divided between the brothers but owned jointly, no doubt because this family continued the old Jewish tradition of keeping a small holding undivided as the joint property of the �father�s house,� rather than dividing it between heirs. So, two generations back, this farm would have belonged to Joseph and his brother Clopas. Unfortunately, since the plethron has two possible sizes, it seems impossible to determine whether the farm was about 12 or 24 acres. In either case, this is not much land to support two families, and Joseph had at least seven children to feed. It is not surprising that he (and later Jesus) supplemented the family income by working as a carpenter."
http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/bsba2806kprdg1.html

Have fun!
Clarice

Boro Nut · 08-04-2003, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Clarice O'C
Richard Bauckham writes for the BAR that Joseph, and later Jesus, "supplemented" their income by doing carpentry

What people forget is that he was also shit hot at clearing blocked drains. That's why he was known to some as Jesus the Nazarene - the annointed one, to others as Imanuel the saviour, and to the Romans as Christ the turd podger.

Boro Nut

Toto · 08-04-2003, 10:52 AM

Hi Clarice - Do you see the existence of the Desponsynoi as evidence of a historical Jesus? I tried to start a thread on it a while back

Jesus' Jewish Relatives

but nobody seemed interested.

Your quote from Bauckham

Quote:

Although the traditions in Hegesippus tend to be legendary, the legends are attached to historical figures who were revered as Christian leaders and martyrs in the memory of the Jewish-Christian communities of Palestine. Though the tales about them might not always ring true, we can be sure that these people did exist and were related to Jesus in the way Hegesippus claims.

seems historically naive.

Toto · 08-04-2003, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Relative Newcomer
. . .. Is it the general consensus that:

1) Jesus "if" he existed was an actual carpenter or
2) he was financially secure or
3) he made his money through his ministries?

. . .

There's no general consensus about any of that.

Jesus, if he existed, might have been a carpenter. Or he might have been a "master builder" in some mystic sense.

Mark describes him as a carpenter but doesn't give any examples of his work; Matthew seems to think that carpentry might be beneath him, and turns him into the son of a carpenter.

In any case, he seems to have lived on air, or donations from his followers, or by conjuring up fishes and loaves.

On the Aramaic for carpenter, see here

Quote:

The word in Greek in Mk 6.3 is TEKTWN from which the English word "tectonic" is derived. The Greek word is used in the Greek Old Testament to translate a Hebrew word which means an "artificer" in either stone or wood, but especially in wood. So its likely meaning in Mk 6.3, if taken literally, is "wood-worker" or "carpenter".

However, the word for "carpenter" in Aramaic, tha language spoken in the synagogue at Nazareth, was used metaphorically, according to Professor Geza Vermes in his book JESUS THE JEW. In Talmudic sayings the Aramaic noun for carpenter or craftsman is NAGGAR and stands for a "scholar" or "learned man". The origin of this proverbial use of the word for "carpenter" is that carpenters in those ways were regarded as the brains of the community (just like computer engineers today). Carpenters work very much in three dimensions, and you need to think hard to get it right! So the word TEKTWN in Mark 6.3, interestingly, could have meant simply that Jesus was very clever.

The issue seems to make orthodox Christians a bit uncomfortable. From here

Quote:

Jesus the Carpenter?

Recently, a Jesuit lecturer has painted Jesus as a "successful builder" and "relatively well off"(22) but others before have tried to suggest that Joseph's carpentry firm was more than a simple workshop. These vain attempts to raise Jesus above the level of a humble carpenter are futile since we know that his parents were not well off. As cited above they offered the poor man's sacrifice at Jesus' birth - a pair of doves and 2 young pigeons - (Leviticus 12.2,6,8; Luke 2.22-24).

But where do we get the idea from that Jesus himself was a carpenter? Another myth perhaps? Significant manuscripts of Mark support Matthew 13.55 which only describes Jesus as "son of the carpenter"not as the "carpenter, son of Mary". Indeed, the early 3rd century church writer Origen(23)writes against Celsus' assertion that Jesus was a mere carpenter, that "in none of the Gospels current in the churches is Jesus Himself ever described as being a carpenter".(24) This is still a widely debated topic(25), however Geza Vermes(26) highlights an Aramaic use of the term carpenter/craftsman (naggar) to metaphorically describe a 'scholar' or 'learned man'. Nevertheless, the majority of wandering rabbis had a trade to support their learning and teaching and there is no reason to doubt that carpentry may have been that of Jesus. Although Origen dismisses Jesus' role as carpenter, the earlier church writer Justin(27) cites it, he says that "He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes; by which He taught the symbols of righteousness and an active life)".

Clarice O'C · 08-04-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Hi Clarice - Do you see the existence of the Desponsynoi as evidence of a historical Jesus? I tried to start a thread on it a while back

Jesus' Jewish Relatives

but nobody seemed interested.

Hi Toto,

What a great question. I dunno but I'd like to see what people have to say. There may be more interest now so I'll post something there soon.

Best,
Clarice

Doctor X · 08-04-2003, 04:12 PM

Toto:

Quote:

So the word TEKTWN in Mark 6.3, interestingly, could have meant simply that Jesus was very clever.

Or that Mk did not know the meaning in Aramaic. Interesting.

--J.D.

Nom · 08-04-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Jesus, if he existed, might have been a carpenter. Or he might have been a "master builder" in some mystic sense.

Mark describes him as a carpenter but doesn't give any examples of his work; Matthew seems to think that carpentry might be beneath him, and turns him into the son of a carpenter.

Theology prof by the name of Dennis MacDonald presented an interesting take on the "carpenter" question a few years ago in a book entitled The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark, a very readable and (IMHO) compelling case that the first gospel drew a great deal of inspiration from Homer's Illiad and (mostly) The Odyssey. Odysseus is also described as a TEKTWN, MacDonld says; making the hero of an epic a skilled craftsman was symbolic of wisdom and foresight. He suggests that the autors of later gospels were either unaware of this "pagan" motif and removed it out of embarassment, or were aware of it and deliberately removed/changed it.

Secular Pinoy · 08-04-2003, 04:52 PM

According to Marcus Borg:

Quote:

He [Jesus- SP] probably became a woodworker (in Greek, tekton). The word tekton has been translated as, but has a different meaning from, our word carpenter-that is, one who works on wooden buildings. For the most part, buildings were not made of wood in Palestine. Rather, a tekton made wood products: doors, door frames, roof beams, furniture, cabinets, boxes, even yokes and plows. In terms of social standing, a tekton was at the lower end of the peasant class, more marginalized than a peasant who still owned a small piece of land. We should not think of a tekton as being a step up from a subsistence farmer; rather, a tekton belonged to a family that had lost its land.

p. 26, Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time

08-04-2003, 09:15 PM

I always thought that Jesus was a carpenter because Joseph was a carpenter which really is a metaphor for "creator of many things" because carpenters are known to make many things. The point there is 'that all is made in sin' and so Joseph was a big sinner which was the cause for his return to Bethlehem where he gave an account of himself as an upright honest Jew. This account caused his rebirth and so Jesus was the reborn Joseph now carrying the many sins of Joseph in the shape of a cross to Calvary which was outside the city to indicate that the final battle is also a nonrational event (Coriolanus did the same in Corioli).

08-04-2003, 08:58 AM	#1
Relative Newcomer Guest Posts: n/a	Jesus the carpenter?? I'm not well versed in bible stories. Supposedly, Jesus' father, Joseph, was a carpenter and perhaps Jesus himself was brought up in the same trade. I'm not sure how this would apply to his "missing years" from +/- 12 to 30 while he was off studying buddism or whatever. Anyway, a friend of mine mentioned that a "carpenter" in original Aramaic probably meant "financially secure", instead of the literal translation of laborer that we use today. Is it the general consensus that: 1) Jesus "if" he existed was an actual carpenter or 2) he was financially secure or 3) he made his money through his ministries? I often hear quoted parables about how Jesus told the masses to do away with materialistic posessions and enhance their spirituality. Makes me wonder if this isn't a case of "do as I say, not as I do". Thanks in advance.

08-04-2003, 09:15 PM	#10
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Jesus the carpenter?? I always thought that Jesus was a carpenter because Joseph was a carpenter which really is a metaphor for "creator of many things" because carpenters are known to make many things. The point there is 'that all is made in sin' and so Joseph was a big sinner which was the cause for his return to Bethlehem where he gave an account of himself as an upright honest Jew. This account caused his rebirth and so Jesus was the reborn Joseph now carrying the many sins of Joseph in the shape of a cross to Calvary which was outside the city to indicate that the final battle is also a nonrational event (Coriolanus did the same in Corioli).

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