Loren Pechtel

Yeah, the Texas measure sounds like more than my mother got for chemo--and it did kill her. Am I upset with the doctor? No--the only doctor I'm mad at is the one who dismissed the earliest symptoms as nothing. (Not that it would actually have made any real difference.)

dk

• Why do pro-choice orgs and the abortion industry reps fight so hard against the idea of informed consent

• ?
  Loren Pechtel: Because "informed consent" is merely an attempt to scare and generally to delay things (= drive up the price). If they truly weren't providing the information needed for informed consent they would have been in trouble from their medical boards long ago.
  dk: Abortion doctors and their support staffs have a uniform perspective about abortion that many people don’t share. I’ll grant you the basis of anti-abortion organizations are political, but their ranks swell with women psychologically scared from being pressured into an abortion. Medial boards are vested in the status quo, so are likely $motivated to steer clear of the abortion controversy, and liability wherever possible. They certainly don’t want anti-abortion protesters at their home, and they certainly don’t want the legal expenses Planned Parenthood or the ACLU would bring. This is a difficult question if doctors take into account the patients best interest.
  
• Why are abortion mills in such hurry, don't people usually get scheduled for elective surgery a few days/weeks in advance?
  Loren Pechtel: As is the abortion, although days, not weeks. What you miss with the informed consent laws is that the usual procedure is the woman must come in, be given the information, go home, wait, and then come back for the abortion.
  Two days off work instead of one. Two days of travel instead of one.
  The real issue is increasing the burden on the woman.
  dk: Of all the parents I know that have had kids or themselves undergone elective surgery, I don’t know any that consider a day or two for preparation an incontinence or a burden. Your experience may be different.
  
• What information should an abortion candidate be given to make an informed decision?
  Loren Pechtel: Ask a doctor that one.
  dk: Fair enough, a dumb question.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by dk
dk: Abortion doctors and their support staffs have a uniform perspective about abortion that many people don’t share. I’ll grant you the basis of anti-abortion organizations are political, but their ranks swell with women psychologically scared from being pressured into an abortion.

I don't think this problem is anything like as big as the PL's make it out to be.
Furthermore, the clinics are not to blame. Blame the boyfriends or parents that did the pressuring!

Medial boards are vested in the status quo, so are likely $motivated to steer clear of the abortion controversy, and liability wherever possible.

Failure to get informed consent is a serious offense that has nothing to do with abortion. While I do agree the boards are lax they aren't going to ignore something as widespread as you claim the problem is.

They certainly don’t want anti-abortion protesters at their home, and they certainly don’t want the legal expenses Planned Parenthood or the ACLU would bring.

If there was truly a breach of informed consent then the patient themselves could sue.

dk: Of all the parents I know that have had kids or themselves undergone elective surgery, I don’t know any that consider a day or two for preparation an incontinence or a burden. Your experience may be different.

You're talking *DOUBLING* the time taken off work. For a poor woman that's a burden.

If the issue were truly the information and not the delays the information could be given by some remote means (mail/phone/web). Making her appear is simply to inconvenience her and make it harder for her to hide the fact she's having an abortion.

mfaber

1. And what is this "uniform perspective about abortion" .

2. Having stated the alleged "uniform perspective", can you show any statistics that support your additional claim that "many people don't share" it?

And your evidence that women are pressured into abortions is? Statistics with some evidence for your claims would be a real bonus on occassion.

Especially in light of the FACT that a pregnancy carried to term reaps 10x the income for them (pdf, pg.29 Chart) that an abortion would, not to mention the addition of a new client to "service".

/sacasm on/

Now I just can't imagine why pro-choicers wouldn't want those lovely compassionate members of the Pregnancy Press Gang aka anti-choicers at their homes, shouting "murderer, whore, baby-killer, brainsucker, whore, the usual examples of Christian love and compassion at them. How ungrateful of the prochoicer to not appreciate the "Wanted for Murder" posters, the stalking of their children at schools, the threatening phone calls, the door-to-door campaigns to "inform" neighbors that a "murderer" is in their midst, the phone calls and videos to employers in attempts to get the fired from other jobs ("do you know you employ a supporter of a brain-sucking baby-killer video), etc. given so freely and in the best possible Christian spirit by the Pregnancy Press Gang. What is the world coming to, I tell you!!
/sarcasm off/

Here's an article that explains this type of tactic and how it's been used by sex-hating, powerhungry bully-boy style xtains to Jesus-club people into conforming:

Blood Libel-The Roots of Racism and the Fear of Sex in the Pro-Life Movement


Doctors and staff providing abortions do have the best interests of their patients in mind. Too bad there are people like you who hate sex and are on a power-trip to force everyone to conform to YOUR particular view of morality and nothing better to do with your time than try to mind other people's business. Power and control are your motives NOT any concern for the life or wellfare of the woman or any baby you might plan on enslaving her to bear which is why I will NEVER dignify your position with the title of "pro-life".

dk

dk: Abortion doctors and their support staffs have a uniform perspective about abortion that many people don’t share. I’ll grant you the basis of anti-abortion organizations are political, but their ranks swell with women psychologically scared from being pressured into an abortion.
Loren Pechtel: I don't think this problem is anything like as big as the PL's make it out to be.
Furthermore, the clinics are not to blame. Blame the boyfriends or parents that did the pressuring!
dk: Men that commit statutory rape against a pregnant young women under the age of consent are highly motivated to kill any hint of public scandal. While health care officials are under law obliged to report instances of incest, rape, and statutory rape, the abortion industry thumbs their nose at the law claiming to speak for the best interests of the pregnant child. I don’t want to argue the particulars but there’s clearly a conflict of interests between the abortion industry, parents and the states obligation to protect children against sexual predators. The breast cancer people have allowed themselves to get sucked into the politics, and at this stage of the game denial simply doesn’t cut the mustard. The issue needs to be publicly aired to dispel any hint of a cover up, especially in light of recent revelations about hrt therapies.

dk: Medial boards are vested in the status quo, so are likely $motivated to steer clear of the abortion controversy, and liability wherever possible.
Loren Pechtel: Failure to get informed consent is a serious offense that has nothing to do with abortion. While I do agree the boards are lax they aren't going to ignore something as widespread as you claim the problem is.
dk: Sounds good but a girl 8 to 16 years old can’t sign a legally binding contract to buy a magazine subscription. Does the abortion industry rat out a sexual predator to authorities, or protect the predator in the best interests of the patient. What questions should the abortion counsilor ask an underage prospective abortion client. This isn’t simple a matter. Planned Parenthoods roll in the development of sex education, teachers education, locus parentis rights and pedagogue has far broader implications for everyone in society. There are numerous communications published on the web from disgruntled scientists that dare to mention a possible link between breast cancer and abortion.

dk: They certainly don’t want anti-abortion protesters at their home, and they certainly don’t want the legal expenses Planned Parenthood or the ACLU would bring.
Loren Pechtel:If there was truly a breach of informed consent then the patient themselves could sue.
dk: Minors can’t sue parents, schools or anyone given legal standing to speak for their best interests by the courts, unless criminal negligence or a crime can be proven.

• NARAL says about the "Child Custody Protection Act…
  “The "Child Custody Protection Act" (CCPA) would prohibit anyone other than a parent, including a grandparent, aunt, adult sibling, or religious counselor, from accompanying a young woman across state lines for an abortion without complying with the home state's parental involvement law. Judicial bypass procedures are inadequate to protect minors from the harmful consequences of the CCPA. Obstacles to judicial consent include: limited access to reproductive health care providers and courts; anti-choice judges presiding over hearings; and actual and perceived threats to confidentiality” - Online News Room , NARAL Pro-Choice America
• The US House Judiciary Committee hears…
  ”By passage of the Child Custody Protection Act, this Congress can foreclose at least one proven strategy by those men, or their accomplices, who would hide the results of the men's misdeeds. Men who engage in acts that many states classify as statutory rape will no longer be able to pressure their young victims into crossing state lines to obtain abortions without the knowledge or consent of the girl's parents, or judicial approval, when that knowledge or consent or approval is required by the state where the girl resides.” - Prepared Testimony of Professor Teresa Stanton Collett ; South Texas College of Law , affiliated with Texas A&M University

Informed consent is no simple matter, and its appears to me the radicals want to give the abortion industry free reign to do as they please. The dissemination of information by abortion providers has become a scandal, and the political connection between radical feminists and medial research institutions sucks cancer into the debate, like it or not.

dk: Of all the parents I know that have had kids or themselves undergone elective surgery, I don’t know any that consider a day or two for preparation an incontinence or a burden. Your experience may be different.
Loren Pechtel: You're talking *DOUBLING* the time taken off work. For a poor woman that's a burden.
If the issue were truly the information and not the delays the information could be given by some remote means (mail/phone/web). Making her appear is simply to inconvenience her and make it harder for her to hide the fact she's having an abortion.
dk: I don’t believe the issue is simple from any rational informed perspective. But agree 1 visit + 1 visit = 2 visits, does double the trouble of getting abortion, but also puts undue pressure on many abortion candidates, can have serious long term psychotically impacts on the health of the client, and protects sexual predators.

This debate impacts policy way beyond the possible links between abortion and breast cancer. NIC and ACS have gotten caught up in a tangled web that puts their reputation on the line, but that’s what happens when politics and science collide.

This is not a simple issue.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by dk
Loren Pechtel: I don't think this problem is anything like as big as the PL's make it out to be.
Furthermore, the clinics are not to blame. Blame the boyfriends or parents that did the pressuring!
dk: Men that commit statutory rape against a pregnant young women under the age of consent are highly motivated to kill any hint of public scandal. While health care officials are under law obliged to report instances of incest, rape, and statutory rape, the abortion industry thumbs their nose at the law claiming to speak for the best interests of the pregnant child.

Loren:
Huh? You mean they should refuse an abortion in such cases to make a public scandal? Brand her for life for the wrongs of someone else?

dk:
I don’t want to argue the particulars but there’s clearly a conflict of interests between the abortion industry, parents and the states obligation to protect children against sexual predators.

Loren:
I totally do not follow you here.

dk:
The breast cancer people have allowed themselves to get sucked into the politics, and at this stage of the game denial simply doesn’t cut the mustard. The issue needs to be publicly aired to dispel any hint of a cover up, especially in light of recent revelations about hrt therapies.

Loren:
You mean they are wrong for saying that which doesn't exist doesn't exist?
It's a statistical fabrication--they are comparing abortion vs carrying to term (which is known to have a protective effect) when they should be comparing abortion vs never being pregnant. The risk disappears when you do it this way.

Loren Pechtel: Failure to get informed consent is a serious offense that has nothing to do with abortion. While I do agree the boards are lax they aren't going to ignore something as widespread as you claim the problem is.
dk: Sounds good but a girl 8 to 16 years old can’t sign a legally binding contract to buy a magazine subscription. Does the abortion industry rat out a sexual predator to authorities, or protect the predator in the best interests of the patient.

Loren:
They are under a legal obligation to report child abuse if they think it happened. Abortion has nothing to do with this.

The only thing that makes any sense in your argument is that you are saying they should wreck her life on the off chance it will expose an abuser? What if he kills her to cover it up instead?

dk:
What questions should the abortion counsilor ask an underage prospective abortion client. This isn’t simple a matter.

Loren:
I'm neither a doctor nor a psychologist. I can't answer that one.

I would say the list should include "why are you having an abortion?" and "who is the father?" but that's as far as I can go.

dk:
Planned Parenthoods roll in the development of sex education, teachers education, locus parentis rights and pedagogue has far broader implications for everyone in society.

Loren:
The main reason to deny a teenager an abortion is to punish her. This is not a valid reason.

dk:
There are numerous communications published on the web from disgruntled scientists that dare to mention a possible link between breast cancer and abortion.

Loren:
Tell a lie enough and some people will believe it.

Loren Pechtel:If there was truly a breach of informed consent then the patient themselves could sue.
dk: Minors can’t sue parents, schools or anyone given legal standing to speak for their best interests by the courts, unless criminal negligence or a crime can be proven.

Loren:
Get a clue! Who are you charging with not providing informed consent? Do they fall into any of those protected categories? No!

dk:
Quoting NARAL abouot the CCPA
Judicial bypass procedures are inadequate to protect minors from the harmful consequences of the CCPA. Obstacles to judicial consent include: limited access to reproductive health care providers and courts; anti-choice judges presiding over hearings; and actual and perceived threats to confidentiality

Loren:
Exactly. Judicial bypass is a farce in many communities. The judge simply says no. These don't show up statistically because the locals know this and don't bother to jump through a useless hoop.

Personally, I think the approval rate on judicial bypass should be basically 100%. Anyone who goes through the procedure would know enough to make a reasonable decision. (It's a very important test--they are going to prepare for it.)

dk:
Quoting the house Judiciary Committee:
By passage of the Child Custody Protection Act, this Congress can foreclose at least one proven strategy by those men, or their accomplices, who would hide the results of the men's misdeeds. Men who engage in acts that many states classify as statutory rape will no longer be able to pressure their young victims into crossing state lines to obtain abortions without the knowledge or consent of the girl's parents, or judicial approval, when that knowledge or consent or approval is required by the state where the girl resides

Loren:
As if such testimony is worth the paper it's printed on?! If there's anything unreliable in this world, it's such show testimony. Testimony before congress/congressional committees is normally a stage show, not a search for facts.

dk: I don’t believe the issue is simple from any rational informed perspective. But agree 1 visit + 1 visit = 2 visits, does double the trouble of getting abortion, but also puts undue pressure on many abortion candidates, can have serious long term psychotically impacts on the health of the client, and protects sexual predators.

Loren:
You totally missed my point again. *IF* the issue were truly the providing of information then it would be permitted by remote means. Requiring a visit is clear evidence that the intent is to increase the burden upon her.

dk:
This is not a simple issue.

Loren:
You keep repeating this mantra but you haven't proven anything. Address the points!!

dk

Actually I was pointing out the abortion industries and sexual predators have a common interest, to keep the abortion secret. I meant what I said, nothing more.

dk: I don’t want to argue the particulars but there’s clearly a conflict of interests between the abortion industry, parents and the states obligation to protect children against sexual predators.
Loren: I totally do not follow you here.
dk: I mean… Abortion providers bound by law to report rape, incest and statutory rape routinely thumb their nose at authorities to protect sexual predators.

dk: The breast cancer people have foolishly gotten sucked into the politics, and at this stage of the game denial simply doesn’t cut the mustard. The issue needs to be publicly aired to dispel any hint of a cover up, especially in light of recent revelations about hrt therapies.
Loren: You mean they are wrong for saying that which doesn't exist doesn't exist?
dk: I mean cancer institutions have crawled into bed with radical factions that have tarnished institutional reputation.

Loren: It's a statistical fabrication--they are comparing abortion vs carrying to term (which is known to have a protective effect) when they should be comparing abortion vs never being pregnant. The risk disappears when you do it this way.
dk: To say “the risks disappears when” acknowledges the risk. I’m sure that was not your intent, so in fairness you might wish to restate your case.

• Loren: They are under a legal obligation to report child abuse if they think it happened. Abortion has nothing to do with this.
  dk: When rape or incest leads to a pregnancy, then the aborted baby is the only hard evidence linking the sexual predator to the crime.
• Loren: The only thing that makes any sense in your argument is that you are saying they should wreck her life on the off chance it will expose an abuser?
  dk: No, sexual predators by definition commit serial crime, where one victim becomes a link in a chain of crimes that leads to the next victim. To identify and stop a sexual predator the chain must be broken. The abortion industry destroys evidence that links the sexual predator to a chain of crimes. This shows a blatant disregard for the welfare of women.
• Loren: What if he kills her to cover it up instead?
  dk: Exactly, a sexual predator leaves a chain of victims behind, one victim leading to the next. The only way to stop a sexual predator is to break the chain. It is unconscionable for the abortion industry to protect sexual predators.

dk: What questions should the abortion counselor ask an underage prospective abortion client. This isn’t simple a matter.
Loren: I'm neither a doctor nor a psychologist. I can't answer that one.
dk: Neither are most abortion counselors.

Loren: I would say the list should include "why are you having an abortion?" and "who is the father?" but that's as far as I can go.
dk: Any pretense of “the patients” best interests requires knowing the context of the relationship that lead to the pregnancy. Don’t you even care if the father is a sexual predator?

dk: Planned Parenthoods roll in the development of sex education, teachers education, locus parentis rights and pedagogue has far broader implications for everyone in society.
Loren: The main reason to deny a teenager an abortion is to punish her. This is not a valid reason.
dk: Says who?… The parents, schools, APA, FBI profilers, NEA, ACS, NIC, ACLU, abortion industry, Planned Parenthood, Sexual Predators…

dk: There are numerous communications published on the web from disgruntled scientists that dare to mention a possible link between breast cancer and abortion.
Loren: Tell a lie enough and some people will believe it.
dk: That’s my point, once the problem exists it must be aired in the context of a problem statement.
dk: Forget your opinion for just as second. I’m not charging or blaming anyone. I’m stating a problem.
dk: Is there anyone that can criticize the abortion industry without becoming a farce, and in your opinion who?..
dk: So in a world perfect for the abortion industry the Judiciary becomes an abortion licensing agency, and congressional judiciary committees are exiled to off-Broadway theatres. I’m curious what you think the government should do about scientists that criticize the abortion industry. What can we about women that suffer post abortion depression or parents and fathers that speak out against the abortion industry (a) medicate them (b) create bubble zones for anti abortion spaces (c) charge protesters with the Rico Act (d) lobotomize anti abortion leaders (e) take any and all necessary measures.
dk: Do you suggest a government create an agency to censor abortion information and issue permits to abortion candidates? In principle the idea sounds positively draconian. You might want to rethink the hypothetical.

dk: This is not a simple issue.
Loren: You keep repeating this mantra but you haven't proven anything. Address the points!!
dk: That’s because you keep repeating pretext as if it were context. For a pregnant women/child to make an informed choice, they need all the information that might affect their decision, and they need the support of their family and friends. Abortion is an elective surgery so the abortion industry, abortion clinics and abortion doctors naturally have a personal interest. In my opinion, a tragic side effect of Griswold and Roe was to isolated pregnant women behind a wall of privacy at the precise moment they are most defenseless. Its psychological pretext to assert that a women isolated from everyone they love can make a life altering decision free from coercion. The isolation itself is a form of coercion, and only makes a pregnant women’s circumstance more insecure, intolerable and threatening. The threat is easily directed to justify an abortion, an abortion that opens deep psychological and emotional wounds.

Dr Rick

That's quite a conspiratorial web you've spun there. What exactly is the "abortion industry?" Is it anything like the "pregnancy industry," the "menstrual industry," or "the amputation industry"?

If getting women to have abortions was the goal of groups such a Planned Parenthood, they would not provide contraceptive services.

Conversely, if the goal of the pro-life movement was really to decrease the number of abortions, then groups such as the National Right to Life Committee would not oppose contraceptive services.

There are numerous web sites that claim Elvis is alive, and humans descended from extra-terrestrial reptiles. Very few pro-lifers can avoid making a farce of themselves because most hypocritically oppose measures to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Same thing we ask you: what is the evidence to support the criticisms?

That's patently absurd. Planned Parenthood and most other organizations that provide family planning, abortion, and contraceptive service encourage clients to involve anyone in the decision that the client wants to. Honoring someone's desire for privacy is not "isolation" anymore than not broadcasting the results of your last rectal exam is. If you want to tell somebody about it, you can; likewise, a woman contemplating an abortion or contraception can talk it over with anyone she chooses, but she doesn't have to.

dk

dk: The representative of the abortion industry are the… National Coalition of Abortion Providers, National Organization for Women, National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League, National Abortion Federation, National Coalition of Abortion Providers etc… The is no amputation industry, but the prosthetics industry has two wings 1) dental and 3) orthopedic. There is no menstruation industry, but there is a tampon industry.

Dr Rick: If getting women to have abortions was the goal of groups such a Planned Parenthood, they would not provide contraceptive services.
dk: If preventative contraceptives were reliable there’d be no need for abortion. 90% of abortions are a backstop for failed contraceptives.

Dr Rick: Conversely, if the goal of the pro-life movement was really to decrease the number of abortions, then groups such as the National Right to Life Committee would not oppose contraceptive services.
dk: The pro-life movement needs to concentrate on sexual fidelity, dignity of life, family bonds, moral rectitude, and the hard truth.

dk: There are numerous communications published on the web from disgruntled scientists that dare to mention a possible link between breast cancer and abortion...Is there anyone that can criticize the abortion industry without becoming a farce, and in your opinion who?...
Dr Rick: There are numerous web sites that claim Elvis is alive, and humans descended from extra-terrestrial reptiles. Very few pro-lifers can avoid making a farce of themselves because most hypocritically oppose measures to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
dk: The phrase “unwanted pregnancy” disparages human life, and that’s where the abortion industry begins with a culture of death.

dk: I’m curious what you think the government should do about scientists that criticize the abortion industry.
Dr Rick: Same thing we ask you: what is the evidence to support the criticisms? Without evidence, these allegations appear to be nothing but expressions of personal paranoia.:
dk: Sure doesn’t look like no evidence to me…”The federal government today published its biennial Report on Carcinogens, adding steroidal estrogens used in estrogen replacement therapy and oral contraceptives to its official list of "known" human carcinogens.” - New Federal Report on Carcinogens and Criteria Met to Establish Causal Relationship


dk: ...In my opinion, a tragic side effect of Griswold and Roe was to isolated pregnant women behind a wall of privacy at the precise moment they are most defenseless. Its psychological pretext to assert that a women isolated from everyone they love can make a life altering decision free from coercion. The isolation itself is a form of coercion, and only makes a pregnant women’s circumstance more insecure, more vulnerable and the pregnant women easy prey for unscrupulous opportunists.
Dr Rick: That's patently absurd. Planned Parenthood and most other organizations that provide family planning, abortion, and contraceptive service encourage clients to involve anyone in the decision that the client wants to. Honoring someone's desire for privacy is not "isolation" anymore than not broadcasting the results of your last rectal exam is. If you want to tell somebody about it, you can; likewise, a woman contemplating an abortion or contraception can talk it over with anyone she chooses, but she doesn't have to.
dk: A 14 year old girl taken to an out of state abortion clinic by her 30 year old statutory rapist, sounds pretty covert to me! And the statutory rapist is clearly in control, and the abortion clinic covers up the rapist's lie, then claim to hear no evil, see no evil and do no evil.

Dr Rick

Notice that compassion, freedom, tolerance, and knowledge are nowhere to be seen amongst the cherished goals.

The vast majority of pro-lifers, like you, don't really care about fetuses or women or liberty or honesty so much as about forcing their beliefs upon everyone else; that's the hard truth.

You have shown the dishonesty and deceit that drives much of the movement. Many pro-lifers are not to be trusted; as we've seen throughout this thread, they'll lie if it serves their purpose. Elsewhere, some will even terrorize and murder for it.

You don't really care about breast cancer risks or the health of women, afterall; they have nothing to do with those values you enumerated. It's just a lie, another tool to try to frighten people into your way of thinking. Some pro-lifers bomb abortion clinics, you lie. The former is far more harmful, but both are despicable.

You've been deceitful all along with pointless rants about HRT, breast cancer, isolation, politics, and science, all the time masquerading your real motives behind the charade of concern for "vulnerable women" and "human life."

You blew it, dk: you let the truth finally slip-out.