Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tripleX · 07-13-2002, 02:12 AM

Okay, I went about searching for information on why so many Christians think it's a sin to have sex, or do anything that even remotely displays physical attraction, before marriage. What part of the hypocrite's handbook does it state anything relating to this? I can't get any information on websites other than some preaching about how the spooky guy in the sky told us to do this and that but with no references to where exactly it says not to do it. I just want to see why they think it's so bad.

Marduk · 07-13-2002, 05:46 AM

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says something of the sort "even thinking lustfull thoughts about women is commiting adultry in your heart"
(as Jimmy Carter once said) There is also some ranting about fornicators being bad, along with liars gossips etc.
Some say Jesus was making the point that no one is perfect and all need forgiveness so don't act like such a big deal just because you haven't really done the deed. Later St. Augustine blew everything out of proportion, the little ex-horndog that he was.

David Bowden · 07-13-2002, 06:50 AM

Well, women in particular face a stigma if they've had premarital sex. They aren't worth much as property or as a vessel for childbearing in the Bible, if they're not virgins.

St. Paul was big on making rules to deal with human "sexual immorality". In 1 Corinthians 6:12-7:40 he effectively lays the groundwork for all of the later Christian anti-sex/celibacy teaching. If you haven't read those few paragraphs through yet, give it a whirl, and you'll see Christianity in a whole new light.

Paul thought it would be better if nobody wanted sex at all. But if unmarried people can't control themselves, "they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." "He who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better."

It's really too bad Paul was never introduced to the Kama Sutra and a very flexible prostitute.

-Wanderer

Captain Pedantic · 07-13-2002, 07:28 AM

There were a lot of things that got twiddled about to mean entirely the wrong thing.

A good book to read is Anatomy of Desire by Simon Andrea, which has a chapter on religion and sex. The main theory of that book is that it all started with St. Paul misinterpreting Jesus and continued from there.

(Pre-Jesus, Jewish society had suggested that the childless and infertile were lesser in the eyes of God. Jesus apparently stated that everyone, even the infertile, or those who chose never to marry, was equal in the sight of the Lord. Paul changed that to suggest that those who never married or engaged in sex were actually more holy than others)

Toto · 07-13-2002, 10:19 AM

Read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385265271/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality and the Catholic Church</a> by Uta Ranke-Heinemann.

Her thesis is that the anti-sexuality of the early Christian Church was a pagan-gnostic import that was antithetical to the Jewish elements. She traces the prejudice against sex to the health theories of the Platonists, that having sex is deleterious because it drains precious bodily fluids (shades of Dr. Strangelove!)

One interesting part of her argument is that Jesus must have been married. If he was a pious Jew, as the Gospels state, it was obligatory for him to take a wife. If he hadn't, this would have been such an astounding fact that it would have been mentioned and explained away.

ishalon · 07-13-2002, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:

One interesting part of her argument is that Jesus must have been married. If he was a pious Jew, as the Gospels state, it was obligatory for him to take a wife. If he hadn't, this would have been such an astounding fact that it would have been mentioned and explained away.

Maybe it wasn't strange for a man his age to be single

Toto · 07-13-2002, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ishalon:


Maybe it wasn't strange for a man his age to be single

But that's the point. It was virtually unheard of. It was a Jewish obligation to get married and have sex and have children. A 30 year old man without a wife was not fulfilling the Jewish laws.

Can you think of any noteworthy man in the Bible without a wife other than Jesus and Paul? Even the apostles were reputed to be married.

lpetrich · 07-13-2002, 08:33 PM

And even marital sex has long been suspect -- the Catholic Church's objection to birth control and abortion is that it enables marital sex to become the moral equivalent of nonmarital sex -- sex done just for the fun of it.

lpetrich · 07-14-2002, 01:40 PM

Check out Uta Ranke-Heinemann's excellent book "Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven" for more.

(Title inspired by Matthew 19:12, which suggests neutering oneself for the sake of the "Kingdom of Heaven")

FunkyRes · 07-16-2002, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
And even marital sex has long been suspect -- the Catholic Church's objection to birth control and abortion is that it enables marital sex to become the moral equivalent of nonmarital sex -- sex done just for the fun of it.

I've had Catholics tell me that the objection is to make extra-marital sex less tempting.

Is there documentation that demonstrates your take on it?

07-13-2002, 02:12 AM	#1
tripleX New Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 3	Christian Sex Policy Okay, I went about searching for information on why so many Christians think it's a sin to have sex, or do anything that even remotely displays physical attraction, before marriage. What part of the hypocrite's handbook does it state anything relating to this? I can't get any information on websites other than some preaching about how the spooky guy in the sky told us to do this and that but with no references to where exactly it says not to do it. I just want to see why they think it's so bad.

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07-13-2002, 05:46 AM	#2
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says something of the sort "even thinking lustfull thoughts about women is commiting adultry in your heart" (as Jimmy Carter once said) There is also some ranting about fornicators being bad, along with liars gossips etc. Some say Jesus was making the point that no one is perfect and all need forgiveness so don't act like such a big deal just because you haven't really done the deed. Later St. Augustine blew everything out of proportion, the little ex-horndog that he was.

07-13-2002, 06:50 AM	#3
David Bowden Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Everywhere I go. Yes, even there. Posts: 607	Well, women in particular face a stigma if they've had premarital sex. They aren't worth much as property or as a vessel for childbearing in the Bible, if they're not virgins. St. Paul was big on making rules to deal with human "sexual immorality". In 1 Corinthians 6:12-7:40 he effectively lays the groundwork for all of the later Christian anti-sex/celibacy teaching. If you haven't read those few paragraphs through yet, give it a whirl, and you'll see Christianity in a whole new light. Paul thought it would be better if nobody wanted sex at all. But if unmarried people can't control themselves, "they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." "He who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better." It's really too bad Paul was never introduced to the Kama Sutra and a very flexible prostitute. -Wanderer

07-13-2002, 07:28 AM	#4
Captain Pedantic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK. Posts: 588	There were a lot of things that got twiddled about to mean entirely the wrong thing. A good book to read is Anatomy of Desire by Simon Andrea, which has a chapter on religion and sex. The main theory of that book is that it all started with St. Paul misinterpreting Jesus and continued from there. (Pre-Jesus, Jewish society had suggested that the childless and infertile were lesser in the eyes of God. Jesus apparently stated that everyone, even the infertile, or those who chose never to marry, was equal in the sight of the Lord. Paul changed that to suggest that those who never married or engaged in sex were actually more holy than others)

07-13-2002, 10:19 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385265271/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality and the Catholic Church</a> by Uta Ranke-Heinemann. Her thesis is that the anti-sexuality of the early Christian Church was a pagan-gnostic import that was antithetical to the Jewish elements. She traces the prejudice against sex to the health theories of the Platonists, that having sex is deleterious because it drains precious bodily fluids (shades of Dr. Strangelove!) One interesting part of her argument is that Jesus must have been married. If he was a pious Jew, as the Gospels state, it was obligatory for him to take a wife. If he hadn't, this would have been such an astounding fact that it would have been mentioned and explained away.

07-13-2002, 08:33 PM	#8
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	And even marital sex has long been suspect -- the Catholic Church's objection to birth control and abortion is that it enables marital sex to become the moral equivalent of nonmarital sex -- sex done just for the fun of it.

07-14-2002, 01:40 PM	#9
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Check out Uta Ranke-Heinemann's excellent book "Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven" for more. (Title inspired by Matthew 19:12, which suggests neutering oneself for the sake of the "Kingdom of Heaven")

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