openeyes

From books I've read recently about consciousness, from people who are really studying it scientifically (Gerald Edelman, et al.), I'm reinforced in my thinking that there can be no meaningful consciousness after we die. The atoms making up our bodies will be recirculated, but we won't "know" anything about anything once our brain cells quit firing at our death (and sometimes before if certain injuries/diseases strike and they quit firing in the proper sequence or in the proper places.)

christ-on-a-stick

Hi Mary,

Thanks for your response. The reason that I was wondering if you and your husband were "de-converts" as opposed to lifelong atheists is that I've found (from personal experience as well as hearing from others) that even once we've disabused ourselves of the god-belief, the belief in an "afterlife" can be so very, very deeply ingrained - imbedded almost in our psyches (talk of "heaven" etc. practically from infancy) that it can be extremely difficult to shake off, so to speak.

I know that even after I had arrived here at the II and had been firmly self-identified as an atheist for some time, I had my lingering doubts about the whole afterlife issue. I read almost everything in the II Library on the topic and every post on the subject in the Science and Skepticism forum.

At some point, can't say exactly when but it's been a while, it became almost blindingly obvious to me - sort of an "a ha" moment.... before we are conceived/born, the atoms that will make up our bodies and brains all exist, scattered here and there, but have yet to come together, form a brain and start firing those synapses and having neurochemical reactions that lead to our first experiences of "consciousness". When we die, those cells and atoms break down and come apart again.... scattered here and there (especially if you get cremated! hehe)... and consciousness is lost.

Another thing that struck me in illustrating how consciousness and the sense of "who we are" is tied inextricably to the physical brain is the phenomenon of Alzheimer's disease. As the physical brain deteriorates and otherwise goes haywire, a person while still living , in a very sad sense "loses" who they are entirely. This happens similarly in the case of brain injury from an accident, brain tumors, etc. I find it ludicrous to believe that somehow someone who has Alzheimer's and eventually completely loses anything that we would have associated with the "essence" of their personality and lucid consciousness would somehown, upon death, have this "restored" to them as though a copy got made and stored somewhere in the cosmos at the onset of their illness.

From whence we came, we shall return.

I dunno... the concept of "the void" doesn't seem scary to me.... I won't be aware of it. It's a weird concept to wrap your head around, but it made a lot more sense to me after having surgery not long ago and being under general anesthetic. Unlike being asleep, where you are still dreaming and can be semi-conscious of your surroundings, you are literally UN-conscious. If I had never woken up, I would not have known it. I suppose that that is what death is like.

Shadowy Man

Where does the RAM go when you unplug your computer?

HelenM

What about those people who have near-death experiences which convince them of things that contradict what Bible-believing Christians teach? I.e. those people who aren't Christians, who see 'a light' and come around convinced that all religions lead to God? How come some NDEs seem consistent with what Bible-believing Christians teach and some don't?

Also, what constitutes a 'proof' of an 'after-death experience'? I mean, we can't 'prove' that someone 'talked to Jesus' or 'talked to an angel', can we?

Fwiw, a lot of Christians are just as skeptical about NDEs as atheists, saying that it would be very unwise to try to draw conclusions about life after death from NDEs.

Helen

Marduk

"The problem I have with this is that, if true, what "comes back" would not be you, in any normal sense of the word"

You are correct of course, 'you' could be George Bush!
it may be just random, but I suppose the Karma business could apply, but I have no idea how.

Shadowy Man

No. Remember: "You cannot step in the same river twice."

Buffman

HelenM

(Just some musings triggered by your latest remarks.)

Some people desperately need to believe in something greater than themselves because they are so ashamed of what they were/were not or have/have not done in the past. Rather than changing for the better by accepting responsibility for what they were and are, they vainly and arrogantly seek to blame something or someone else for failures without ever truly realizing how much they disparage their stated belief system(s).

When these people credit others for change, by denying their own responsibility, they lock their minds (and free will) into a one-way street of slavery to the directions and edicts of those others. However, IMHO, when these people have to construct artificial images of these others on whom to bestow credit for all those things that humans have determined to be socially positive and constructive, they do so because they are afraid to accept the responsibility for having personally relished many of those things that can and have resulted in negative and destructive consequences for themselves and society. Why else is the supernatural given credit only for good, and never bad, consequences? Why else was/is it necessary to create a Satan/Evil to explain negative(bad) consequences...if not to absolve oneself from personal responsibility?

Amie

Hi Mary
I believe that as well, just in a different way
I believe that as long as we live for the lives we are given and cherish life to the fullest we can ultimately say we have accomplished many things. our lives are filled with tremendous amounts of growth. I concentrate on the life here, not so much the afterlife however I also feel that while I am alive if I can get to a place of inner stillness and practice some equanimity with all that happens in my life (the good and the bad) I will be able to experience some bliss here on earth, a moment that I believe can be Divinely inspired. To be able to experience the truth of who I am aside from what I like and what I dislike...
Amie~

Midnyte

Why is it humans think they will live on forever after death? Why do we think we are such special creatures that will exist for all of time. We are just animals, this Universe is not made for us, we are just a small part of it. Before we exist we are at the "0 state" when we die, we return to that "0 state". Eventually our bodies return to the earth and break up into the building blocks of the Universe to create new matter, whether is living or non-living. Our minds die, you as a person die, that energy is lost. If ghosts did exist, and John Edwards could talk to them, dont you think John would be asking more important ?s to the ghosts? Such as, where are you? Did you meet a god? Is there a heaven or hell? What happens after death?? But no Mr. Edwards gets information on the family pet, or the families finacial situation! WTF is that all about?? We are not special, just a small part of this world that is bound by the laws of the universe, those laws, from what mankind can see with a logical mind clearly state that all things come to an end, and yes that includes these special little creatures called humans.

my 2 cents. :banghead:

Bree

Maybe it's because we're afraid of what we don't know. It's a simple answer (and probably over-used) but I think that fear is a major factor. We are so used to existing we just want to keep on going and going, like the Energizer Bunny. It's scary for some people to contemplate simply not existing anymore.