Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Deputy42 · 02-14-2002, 01:31 PM

finally after 2 days the truth about atheists is coming out

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 01:33 PM

What "truth" is that, pray tell?

Deputy42 · 02-14-2002, 01:40 PM

the reasons most commonly used by atheists to bash christianity are as follows: christians are inflexible, they are intolerant, they are wrong, they discriminate against women, etc.

usually atheists attack questions posed by a christian with full force. anger, loathing, and a superperior mental attitude are often times assumed by an atheist.

it usually takes at least this long for atheists to show their true colors. the traits abhored by atheists in christians are present in the atheists usually, they are just well hidden.

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 01:46 PM

again with those labels, i expected so much more from you.

My comment was directed at the opinions you expressed here, not at you personally. If the shoe fits...

you agree that people wanting to change their gender, among other things, take hormones to affect physical and emotional changes.

Um..so? They don't gain any "new" emotions, just new hormonal balances. Is that a fair criterion for judging someone's abilities?

i dont deny the subjective nature of the individual, yet you do by implementing such restorative practices.

How so? Such practices are needed because the "traditional" system had applied objective (race, sex) filters (which were subjectively determined by the ruling society, BTW). They recognize that benefits should come from merit (which, in a way, is objectively biased as well, no?), and that to overcome the damage caused by the former system, some special mechanism was needed. Note that if the system would have self-adjusted to make the needed accommodations, the special measures would not be needed. Sometimes you just have to kick a dog to make him get up.

a strictly male emotional state.....
a woman can't be happy she is a man i guess.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 01:53 PM

Are you implying that I or others here are expressing any or all of these traits: "inflexible, they are intolerant, they are wrong, they discriminate against women, etc."?

If so, please cite examples of such.

And note that I do not "accuse" all christians of such things. I try to direct my comments towards the opinions expressed by the individual. If an atheist on this board were making similar comments as you have expressed on this thread, I would be taking the same stance.

Deputy42 · 02-14-2002, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
again with those labels, i expected so much more from you.

My comment was directed at the opinions you expressed here, not at you personally. If the shoe fits...

you agree that people wanting to change their gender, among other things, take hormones to affect physical and emotional changes.

Um..so? They don't gain any "new" emotions, just new hormonal balances. Is that a fair criterion for judging someone's abilities?

d-by no means, yet you would base gifts on such attributes.

i dont deny the subjective nature of the individual, yet you do by implementing such restorative practices.

How so? Such practices are needed because the "traditional" system had applied objective (race, sex) filters (which were subjectively determined by the ruling society, BTW). They recognize that benefits should come from merit (which, in a way, is objectively biased as well, no?), and that to overcome the damage caused by the former system, some special mechanism was needed. Note that if the system would have self-adjusted to make the needed accommodations, the special measures would not be needed. Sometimes you just have to kick a dog to make him get up.

d-the system you propose for ensuring equality will not end until people THINK the way you think. you will not stop until everyone is mentally homogenized.....sounds like mental tyranny of the christian variety. and again i ask you, when will you stop crying history?
a strictly male emotional state.....
a woman can't be happy she is a man i guess.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

if you are a woman you wouldnt understand. you asked for a state that only a man would understand. its sort of a catch 22

Deputy42 · 02-14-2002, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Are you implying that I or others here are expressing any or all of these traits: "inflexible, they are intolerant, they are wrong, they discriminate against women, etc."?

If so, please cite examples of such.
d- your admission that redistributive practices wouldn't end until everyone thinks like you, or, more precisely, until views like mine ceased to be

And note that I do not "accuse" all christians of such things. I try to direct my comments towards the opinions expressed by the individual. If an atheist on this board were making similar comments as you have expressed on this thread, I would be taking the same stance.

im sorry about the generalization....my apologies. however being an atheist and taking a stance against chritianity demands mental generalizations.

it is refreshing to note how many atheists, under a certain amount of crutiny and extensive questionings, exhibit all of the same mental prejudices and evils that they themselves attack in christians.

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 02:01 PM

I said:

When everyone has dispensed with the attitudes you've expressed on this thread.

Deputy Dawg replied:

thats bullshit, especially coming from those who profess free speech and thought. apparently you are equally as dogmatic and inflexible as a christian....be careful

I really don't see how this follows from my comment. If you think my comment is "bullshit," you need to give some reason for it. You have every right to your opinion, of course. However, when someone expresses opinions that are racist/sexist, even if clouded in religious or other rhetoric, I feel it's my duty to speak out against them. There are, quite simply, some "opinions" which we'd be better off without as a species.

-DM- · 02-14-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deputy42:
... No one will argue that jesus is the most influential person in western cultural development.

I will not argue that Christianity is the most influential religion in western cultural development, but I will argue that Jesus was the most influential person in western cultural development for the following reasons:
1) The Jesus who has allegedly influenced western cultural development is not the same Jesus who got himself crucified by the Romans. The Jesus who has influenced western cultural development is largely legendary.
2) Christianity as it is taught and preached in western countries depends more on the teachings of Paul than it does on the alleged life and teachings of Jesus.

Quote:

i'm assuming that the majority of users are reading and posting from an american western perspective. within the last decade or so, american mainstream society has received a large influx of alternate or eastern viewpoints. i find very little focus upon these religious perspectives.

There are far fewer individuals of other persuasions who visit the Secular Web or our discussion boards.

Quote:

maybe those actively attacking chritianity should be more open and label themselves acurately. many deny the christian tradition by expressing the wish to remain free to worship whatever deity they wish be he/it/she/whatever buddah allah aliens or my left big toe. i feel personal affinity to those who reject chritianity and wish to turn to other "ways of the spirit".

Perhaps, but I think that you will find that most of us here reject the whole notion of "ways of the spirit" (assuming that you mean by it what I think you mean.)

"Spirituality: Transcendent double-talk signifying nothing."
- Tom Flynn, U.S. author, freethinker

Quote:

there is a lot of misinformation on these posts regarding biblical references.

... including misinformation put out by Christians.

Quote:

one example are those people who read revelation and say that only 144000 people are saved. they use this to say that with over 6 billion people alive today, how can one hope to be saved and goto heaven. however, reading the very next verse, one will find that indeed, a multitude ofpeople from all languages and races will be saved.

RE 14:1-4 144,000 virgin men who have not been "defiled" by women will be inhabitants in heaven.

RE 21:16 The city New Jerusalem (which is where the occupants of heaven reside) is only about 1500 miles square.

... and a verse which speaks of a multitude of people from all languages and races, does not necessarily contravene the number 144,000

Quote:

my sneaking suspicion in this regard is as follows: i think people read the bible with many preconceived notions and also with a rebellious spirit.

This is undoubtedly true in at least some cases. On the other hand, many Christians read the Bible with preconceived notions and also with an accepting -- even gullible -- spirit.

It is also true, however, that many of ex-Christians are ex-Christians exactly because they did read the Bible and began to see the inconsistencies and other problems, which inconsistencies and problems led them to look into the "other side of the story" -- and eventually to reject Christianity as untrue and hopelessly muddled. (That is true of me, for example.)

Quote:

many people see a passage, immediately judge its meaning incorrectly and go on from there using this bible quote as a springboard for atheism.

And many Christians see a passage, immediately judge its meaning incorrectly and go on from there using this Bible quote as a springboard for renewed faith or evangelizing of others. Or they may go to one Bible study after another in order to have the "apparent problems" allegedly explained away by their pastor or Bible-study leader (who relies on nearly 2000 years of apologistic endeavor in order to help him/her through the tough questions).

Quote:

please people, if you are going to argue theology, and especially Christianity, READ THE FREAKING THING!!!!!! a study bible is the best to start with and the price paid is easily repaid in the understanding one can gain.

It is presumptuous, I think, to assume that those whom you address have not read the Bible, or enough of it to know that they think it is bunk. It would be similar if we were to say, "if you are going to argue theology (or atheism), then READ THE FREAKING atheist literature. A good place to start would be 'Losing Faith in Faith,' by Dan Barker."

<a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=41" target="_blank">Losing Faith in Faith,</a> by Dan Barker.

<a href="http://www.secweb.org/bookstore/bookdetail.asp?BookID=94" target="_blank">The Case Against Christianity,</a> by Michael Martin.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0877226423/InternetInfidelsA" target="_blank">Atheism : A Philosophical Justification</a> by Michael Martin

--Don--

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 02:08 PM

I for one, don't "take a stance against" or "attack" christians. I do, however, stand against what I perceive as harmful aspects of christianity (or any other worldview), for example, the subjugation of women imposed by (at least some of) christianity and other religions.

And name for me what "mental prejudices and evils" I've expressed here.

if you are a woman you wouldnt understand. you asked for a state that only a man would understand. its sort of a catch 22

??? Once again, you've lost me. I'll reiterate: there are no emotions experienced by a woman that a man can't also experience, and vice versa.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

02-14-2002, 02:08 PM	#100
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I for one, don't "take a stance against" or "attack" christians. I do, however, stand against what I perceive as harmful aspects of christianity (or any other worldview), for example, the subjugation of women imposed by (at least some of) christianity and other religions. And name for me what "mental prejudices and evils" I've expressed here. if you are a woman you wouldnt understand. you asked for a state that only a man would understand. its sort of a catch 22 ??? Once again, you've lost me. I'll reiterate: there are no emotions experienced by a woman that a man can't also experience, and vice versa. [ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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02-14-2002, 01:31 PM	#91
Deputy42 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: pittsburgh Posts: 99	finally after 2 days the truth about atheists is coming out

02-14-2002, 01:33 PM	#92
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	What "truth" is that, pray tell?

02-14-2002, 01:40 PM	#93
Deputy42 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: pittsburgh Posts: 99	the reasons most commonly used by atheists to bash christianity are as follows: christians are inflexible, they are intolerant, they are wrong, they discriminate against women, etc. usually atheists attack questions posed by a christian with full force. anger, loathing, and a superperior mental attitude are often times assumed by an atheist. it usually takes at least this long for atheists to show their true colors. the traits abhored by atheists in christians are present in the atheists usually, they are just well hidden.

02-14-2002, 01:46 PM	#94
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	again with those labels, i expected so much more from you. My comment was directed at the opinions you expressed here, not at you personally. If the shoe fits... you agree that people wanting to change their gender, among other things, take hormones to affect physical and emotional changes. Um..so? They don't gain any "new" emotions, just new hormonal balances. Is that a fair criterion for judging someone's abilities? i dont deny the subjective nature of the individual, yet you do by implementing such restorative practices. How so? Such practices are needed because the "traditional" system had applied objective (race, sex) filters (which were subjectively determined by the ruling society, BTW). They recognize that benefits should come from merit (which, in a way, is objectively biased as well, no?), and that to overcome the damage caused by the former system, some special mechanism was needed. Note that if the system would have self-adjusted to make the needed accommodations, the special measures would not be needed. Sometimes you just have to kick a dog to make him get up. a strictly male emotional state..... a woman can't be happy she is a man i guess. I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

02-14-2002, 01:53 PM	#95
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Are you implying that I or others here are expressing any or all of these traits: "inflexible, they are intolerant, they are wrong, they discriminate against women, etc."? If so, please cite examples of such. And note that I do not "accuse" all christians of such things. I try to direct my comments towards the opinions expressed by the individual. If an atheist on this board were making similar comments as you have expressed on this thread, I would be taking the same stance.

02-14-2002, 02:01 PM	#98
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I said: When everyone has dispensed with the attitudes you've expressed on this thread. Deputy Dawg replied: thats bullshit, especially coming from those who profess free speech and thought. apparently you are equally as dogmatic and inflexible as a christian....be careful I really don't see how this follows from my comment. If you think my comment is "bullshit," you need to give some reason for it. You have every right to your opinion, of course. However, when someone expresses opinions that are racist/sexist, even if clouded in religious or other rhetoric, I feel it's my duty to speak out against them. There are, quite simply, some "opinions" which we'd be better off without as a species.

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