dk

Ah, in my opinion the zombie presents a scaled version of Plato's cave fit to virtual reality and the big screen to explain the nightly news.

mfaber

Hi, Smilin! (gladiatrix here from CF)

Fabulous discussion, all!!! I'd like to comment something you said earlier....

Creationists and many theists like to insist that modern humans are unique in the self-awareness department and are further unique in that this self-awareness has resulted in the development of culture. However, they can't explain prehistoric people like Neanderthals who were NOT humans, but nevertheless were self-aware. Consider the case of the the Neaderthals who inhabited the Shanidar Cave (Iraq).

Neandertals inhabited Shanidar Cave around 45,000 or 50,000 years ago. There is evidence that they showed considerable awareness in that they

• Used fire/made tools
  
• Showed compassion from members of the group. The skeleton of Shanidar I showed congenital malformation of the right scapula (shoulder blade), clavicle (collar bone), and humerus (upper arm bone) which were all smaller and less developed than their counterparts in the left shoulder. The lower part of the right humerus was missing, along with all the bones below the elbow joint (suggesting intentional amputation at some point). He seems to have survived a severe facial injury (severe scarring of the facial bones of the left eye) which probably cost him his sight in that eye. In addition, there was also evidence of extensive bone healing and scarring on the top of his head, indicating that he received and survived a severe head injury (probably from a rock fall). All of these incidences happened a number of years before his death. Shanidar I was not the only one there who seemed to have survived severe injuries, there was another, Shanidar III. These injuries/crippling were too severe for these man to have survived without care.
  
• They were are of death and had burial rituals. Skeletons were found in graves, ringed with stones, with knees bent along with flower anthers and pollen from a variety of flowers, suggesting that flowers were put on the grave (pollen/anthers found no where else in the cave). They even seem to have been ordered in family groups (2 adults with an infant between them)
  
• They had a sense of cooperation and unity. Solecki and Co. uncovered Shanidar II who had been killed by a cave ceiling fall (skeleton covered with rubble, skull crushed). He seems to have been given a burial ceremony as evidenced by worked stone points arranged on top of his rock-fall grave and the evidence of a feast at the site (a fire plus many split animal bones, next to the rock fall/grave).

Now also observe that Homo erectus made tools (wood, stone). Creationists sneer and pan this species as "just another ape", but this really submarines their argument that only modern humans are self-aware because one is now faced with an "ape" capable of doing what primitive H. sapiens did! So much for the creationists' "awareness gap" between humans and apes.....

Some theists would have us believe that such things as compassion, awareness of death, a sense of community, etc. are exclusively human and the result of a god who endowed us the a soul and a mind that is "conscious" of some divine purpose. The Neanderthals disprove that one (unless the Almight screwed up yet again and had to start over with modern humans)

The point here is that these examples are evidence that modern humans are not "special creations" (have a soul that dispenses "awareness" and with it the ability to alter the environment, develop culture, etc.). Just my two centavos....

References:

1. Jeffrey H. Schwartz, What the Bones Tell Us, (New York: Henry Holt, 1993), p. 12-15

2. Brian Hayden, The Cultural Capacities of Neandertals, J. Human Evol. 1993. 24:113-146,

3. Arlette Leroi-Gourhan, Comments Current Anthro. 1989. 30: 157-190.

Smilin

Interesting thought...
I knew Neanderthals weren't human ancestors, however, I've always thought they functioned very similar to humans....

As far as self-awareness, I argue that all animals are aware of their existance. Even my cat is aware of herself, my presence, and the needs of her 6 kittens. Whether or not any other animal experiences 'consciousness' is the question...

Very interesting thoughts on pre-historic man...

Your inputs to CF is like dissecting a doctorial thesis. I've been meaning to tell you that..

You might want to check out my 'outcast' thread in the introduction section... you quoted Brimshack the other night.. he's posing as 'gunnaheave'... (I can't talk him into returning)

Big green football heads are so stubborn......

Smilin

Hey, I need one of those too while your at it..

Smilin

dk: Drowning, charging grizzly bears, and war present life and death situations. The extent to which a person can control their destiny in such dire circumstances they must overcome and focus their sense, emotions, perceptions and instincts with reasoned purpose. Tragically many people die from a mob mentality as an entailment of panic. In a Chicago nightclub just a few months ago 21 people died when pepper spray turned them into a mob. In Vermont 98 people died in a fire set by pyrotechnics before their eyes. By all accounts the audience as a mob squealed with delight at the amazing visual display, only to find the delights of the mob turn into deadly consuming embrace. I’m not wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]



So you agree panic is a non-conscious reaction.. (fight or flight response) When I was 10, I almost drowned. I can remember vividly fighting for my life in the water... (I wasn't able to act rationally at the time).

Reaction to life and death situations is a function of all living creatures.

But to refocus back to the main question at hand, what determines consciousness and do other animals posses it?

mike_decock

I just finished reading that book and it is an EXCELLENT read. He provides a very good description of subjective consciousness in the beginning of the book which I would recommend. In short, it is the awareness of our own awareness; the ability to have an analog "I" in our own mind-space.

Jaynes also presents a theory on how subjective consciousness evolved from a bicameral (similar to schizophrenic) mindset about 3,000 years ago. Whether or not you buy the theory, the wealth of data he uses to support his theory is well worth investigating.

-Mike...

Smilin

Which brings to mind another question...
Does the mind of an individual suffering a Personality Disorder (such as schizophrenia) possess consciousness?

mike_decock

Jaynes devotes a chapter to discussing schizophrenia. In short, yes, they possess consciousness. What appears to be happening in modern schizophrenics is a partial reversion to the bicameral mind.

Schizophrenics are usually aware of their schizophrenia although they may shift between between periods during which their consciousness is present or absent.

-Mike...

Gringo

Schizophrenics are as conscious as anyone else, sometimes maybe more so But as far as our minds evolving from such a state as this is unlikely, considering the delusions, and visual and auditory hallucinations wouldn't be advantageous to one's survival.

ekorczynski

Read Jaynes for thorough discussion of the possible survival advantages of the "bicameral mind" in pre-history. He proposes that individuals within a society may have essentially "heard the same voice" of their "god" instructing them in what was to be done in the moment; thus, the hearing of voices would function as a central coordinating social function.

One remnant of this mindset that has descended to the present would be the phrase, "Not my will, but Thy will be done." He points out that there is evidence that in this phase of human evolution, there was no concept of "law" or "rules" to be obeyed, raising question as to how society was controlled. He supposes that people instead "heard the voice of god" telling them what to do in a manner evoked by the modern phrase "to hear is to obey."

This theory challenges many assumptions, and it is only because of Jaynes' thorough supporting data and careful analysis that it seems credible. Check out his data...