Peter Kirby

1 Esdras was in the Septuagint but was excluded from the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox canons.

The king held a contest to see who could give the best answer as to what is strongest in the world: the first said wine, and the second said the king. Here is the answer of the third.

Chapter 4 (RSV)
14: Gentlemen, is not the king great, and are not men many, and is not wine strong? Who then is their master, or who is their lord? Is it not women?
15: Women gave birth to the king and to every people that rules over sea and land.
16: From women they came; and women brought up the very men who plant the vineyards from which comes wine.
17: Women make men's clothes; they bring men glory; men cannot exist without women.
18: If men gather gold and silver or any other beautiful thing, and then see a woman lovely in appearance and beauty,
19: they let all those things go, and gape at her, and with open mouths stare at her, and all prefer her to gold or silver or any other beautiful thing.
20: A man leaves his own father, who brought him up, and his own country, and cleaves to his wife.
21: With his wife he ends his days, with no thought of his father or his mother or his country.
22: Hence you must realize that women rule over you! "Do you not labor and toil, and bring everything and give it to women?
23: A man takes his sword, and goes out to travel and rob and steal and to sail the sea and rivers;
24: he faces lions, and he walks in darkness, and when he steals and robs and plunders, he brings it back to the woman he loves.
25: A man loves his wife more than his father or his mother.
26: Many men have lost their minds because of women, and have become slaves because of them.
27: Many have perished, or stumbled, or sinned, because of women.
28: And now do you not believe me? "Is not the king great in his power? Do not all lands fear to touch him?
29: Yet I have seen him with Apame, the king's concubine, the daughter of the illustrious Bartacus; she would sit at the king's right hand
30: and take the crown from the king's head and put it on her own, and slap the king with her left hand.
31: At this the king would gaze at her with mouth agape. If she smiles at him, he laughs; if she loses her temper with him, he flatters her, that she may be reconciled to him.
32: Gentlemen, why are not women strong, since they do such things?"

best,
Peter Kirby

Geoff Hudson

Don't tell me - I know all about it. Its a pity I didn't read this years ago.

Perhaps the reason why it wasn't in the canon is because it is too close to the truth.

Copy it in large print boys and stick it on your toilet (bathroom) door for meditation.

Geoff

Geoff

Elvithriel

Didn't anyone tell this guy that women are evil?

Peter Kirby

The writer of the story above must have never talked to Jesus ben Sira, whose book made it into the Catholic Bible.

Sirach 22 (RSV)
3: It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined son, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.

Sirach 25 (RSV)
23: A dejected mind, a gloomy face, and a wounded heart are caused by an evil wife. Drooping hands and weak knees are caused by the wife who does not make her husband happy.
24: From a woman sin had its beginning, and because of her we all die.

Sirach 42 (RSV)
12: Do not look upon any one for beauty, and do not sit in the midst of women;
13: for from garments comes the moth, and from a woman comes woman's wickedness.
14: Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; and it is a woman who brings shame and disgrace.

best,
Peter Kirby

Haran

Peter, wasn't the Septuagint the Bible of the early Christians up until around the time of Jerome? And don't the Eastern Orthodox still use it?

Is the implicit meaning of such a post supposed to be that the mentioned faiths did not include the book because they are misogynistic?

Toto

I don't think misogyny can completely explain why this book was left out. The moral of the passage is not that women are powerful, but that men are dolts. The passage is full of humor and irony.

Following the passage that Peter quoted is the real moral:

34: "Gentlemen, are not women strong? The earth is vast, and heaven is high, and the sun is swift in its course, for it makes the circuit of the heavens and returns to its place in one day.
35: Is he not great who does these things? But truth is great, and stronger than all things.
36: The whole earth calls upon truth, and heaven blesses her. All God's works quake and tremble, and with him there is nothing unrighteous.
37: Wine is unrighteous, the king is unrighteous, women are unrighteous, all the sons of men are unrighteous, all their works are unrighteous, and all such things. There is no truth in them and in their unrighteousness they will perish.
38: But truth endures and is strong for ever, and lives and prevails for ever and ever.
39: With her there is no partiality or preference, but she does what is righteous instead of anything that is unrighteous or wicked. All men approve her deeds,
40: and there is nothing unrighteous in her judgment. To her belongs the strength and the kingship and the power and the majesty of all the ages. Blessed be the God of truth!"

Peter Kirby

My bad. 1 Esdras is in the Orthodox canon but not the Roman.

The point of the post is that the passage is intriguing and that it would have been great for this to be included in the Bible. The reason that 1 Esdras was excluded from the Roman canon could be something else, such as the discrepancies with the chronicler.

Toto writes:

I agree that the strongest thing in 1 Esdras as it stands is truth. But truth is intrusive. On the note that the third man wrote, it is said, "Women are strongest, but truth is victor over all things." Why does the third man give two answers? I and others suggest that this is because the author of 1 Esdras has carried over and modified an earlier (perhaps pagan) story, without the double answer of the third man.

best,
Peter Kirby